Do you intentionally build a message into your story?
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This question was inspired by a quote from Ursula K. Le Guin:
My fiction, especially for kids and young adults, is often reviewed as if it existed in order to deliver a useful little sermon ("Growing up is tough, but you can make it," that sort of thing). Does it ever occur to such reviewers that the meaning of the story might lie in the language itself, in the movement of the story as read, in an inexpressible sense of discovery, rather than a tidy bit of advice?
I recently found myself trying to weave a story around a message, then I stopped myself and let the story breathe on its own for a bit. I'm considering how to continue. I'm curious to hear what and if others think about this.
My fiction, especially for kids and young adults, is often reviewed as if it existed in order to deliver a useful little sermon ("Growing up is tough, but you can make it," that sort of thing). Does it ever occur to such reviewers that the meaning of the story might lie in the language itself, in the movement of the story as read, in an inexpressible sense of discovery, rather than a tidy bit of advice?
I recently found myself trying to weave a story around a message, then I stopped myself and let the story breathe on its own for a bit. I'm considering how to continue. I'm curious to hear what and if others think about this.
No. I might write about a theme, but never to send any kind of message. Le Guin is absolutely spot on.
defaux
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Not always. But I do try to have my stories provoke thought. Nothing so trite as what Ursula also suggested is a poor conceit.
I like to write in moral ambiguity so that the story raises questions for the reader. Not explicitly, and I don't try to answer them. But just to get the reader thinking about things that hopefully stay with them after the story is finished.
How well it succeeds, I couldn't say.
One of the more deliberate attempts at this was the story I posted for the clone society contest. It poses questions of what it means to be human, and who gets to decide. But does so by illustrating a scenario where those issues are foregrounded, not by proposing a thesis. At least that's the intent, it is naturally open to reader interpretation.
I like to write in moral ambiguity so that the story raises questions for the reader. Not explicitly, and I don't try to answer them. But just to get the reader thinking about things that hopefully stay with them after the story is finished.
How well it succeeds, I couldn't say.
One of the more deliberate attempts at this was the story I posted for the clone society contest. It poses questions of what it means to be human, and who gets to decide. But does so by illustrating a scenario where those issues are foregrounded, not by proposing a thesis. At least that's the intent, it is naturally open to reader interpretation.
Hear, hear. My current WIP is about male, heroic entitlement and objectification. It is supposed to make readers question, but so that they become more invested in the story, not to send out any kind of message about what is right or wrong. I'm not in the business of moralising, I'm just writing a story.
I'm not convinced one can reference a story as
Morality within stories can be implicit and/or explicit, intentional with message or guided by ones own sense of things, cause and effect, ramifications of this thing with that thing. Of the writer's qualities that inform the narrative, moral viewpoint has some bearing, alongside personal interest in the details, experience of same, sense of "what if" wondering and on and on.
Personally, I don't care much for parables, morality tales writ large and try not to push my writing in that direction. I think I'd be fooling myself to suggest my notions of right and wrong were entirely excised all the same.
without having some kind of moral position on the topic.
Morality within stories can be implicit and/or explicit, intentional with message or guided by ones own sense of things, cause and effect, ramifications of this thing with that thing. Of the writer's qualities that inform the narrative, moral viewpoint has some bearing, alongside personal interest in the details, experience of same, sense of "what if" wondering and on and on.
Personally, I don't care much for parables, morality tales writ large and try not to push my writing in that direction. I think I'd be fooling myself to suggest my notions of right and wrong were entirely excised all the same.
Well, if that's how a reader wants to read it, I can't help that. It's in the workshop anyway, feel free to pronounce a verdict on it, although that's not really what I'm looking for. It is what it is. The out of it isn't to send a message. It's reader engagement.
I usually don't write out-and-out adventure frolics.
You could phrase it differently.
Not really. The story works as it is. Writing it differently would make it a different story. I edited the above post, but I'm not going to change the story itself.
Writing is an act of a communication. Whenever we write, we're potentially putting out all kinds of messages into the world – just as our body language and lifestyle choices convey information about us to others.
Communication has long been considered one of the levers of social power; information informs beliefs, shapes attitudes, and influences behaviours; what we chose to say (or not), to whom, when, where, how, and why, is an exercise in power; therefore, there is an ethical aspect to writing that I believe we’re best being mindful of.
I think it would be challenging to write something that does not inadvertently allude in some way to our moral framework; many of our assumptions about the world are held unconsciously.
Communication has long been considered one of the levers of social power; information informs beliefs, shapes attitudes, and influences behaviours; what we chose to say (or not), to whom, when, where, how, and why, is an exercise in power; therefore, there is an ethical aspect to writing that I believe we’re best being mindful of.
I think it would be challenging to write something that does not inadvertently allude in some way to our moral framework; many of our assumptions about the world are held unconsciously.
I don't mean the story. I'm just talking about the summary consisting of
Arguably all three descriptors, but certainly the last two, are hard to separate from a moral judgement. If the story is about heroic entitlement and objectification, then there's some moral position indicated in the choice of those attributes used to summarise the story, which seems to correlate with many people's position of not being very much in favour of those qualities. If those things are what the story is about, moral positioning is central to the story.
I'm not looking to have a go, nor to single you out. I do think even if the author deliberately removes explicit references to morality, what's left behind is what that author may view as morally neutral, except the author still chooses sequences and consequences of action that reveal something about moral position on the matter.
I understand what you mean, but I'm describing the story here, rather than for a market. The story has those themes in it, there is no escaping that. But I don't classify them to, say, editors. If they want to describe the story as such for their readership, it's up to them, they know how to appeal to their readers better than I do. Some readers might like them, some might not. It's kinda the point.
By moralising, I mean explicitly saying "this is bad and you must not agree with it". It just is. It's there, and this is how the characters deal with it. I'm not trying to make the reader disagree with it. *These* characters don't, and that's legitimate for *them*.
I see writing as a search for truth rather than a statement of truth. From that perspective, I will explore different themes without trying to offer judgment or conclusions.
We talk about show, don't tell all the time, and this is part of that. Don't tell me what to think. Show me the evidence and let me decide for myself.
We talk about show, don't tell all the time, and this is part of that. Don't tell me what to think. Show me the evidence and let me decide for myself.
Yes, that's why I framed the question with "intentionally." I agree there will be a whole range of morals we unintentionally push into our writing...
Yes. Could the particular message be otherwise communicated in less than 80-90k words? No, at least in the case of my novels.
It might be better to focus on staying topical to the theme(s) first, then let the message evolve as you write it.
I agree that if there's a theme, then a moral judgement is present in how the story progresses and resolves. See: a tragedy for an easy example.
How much inference is required from the reader will vary. Hell, I was just mentioning in the philosophy thread that I don't think There Will Be Blood is a tragedy. Louanne and I had some pretty different interpretations of the movie's later scenes. In that case, it also becomes an author death situation where it's okay to have different interpretations regardless of the author's intent rather than a single 'correct' one.
To me, that sounds like an intuition versus technical intent situation. Similar to "My characters just do whatever they want" versus "I am entirely in control my characters, as they are my fictional creations." Either way, the characters end up as prisms through which the themes splay rainbows of perspective, and their actions/outcomes tend to align [with] the author's complex opinion on the world.
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I've heard that a message is inevitable, whether intended or not. The reader is probably going to see one no matter what, and people make up whatever they want in their heads anyway, so there isn't much you can do about it. I think a lot of that comes from the academic side of things, where they need to find a message in everything to justify their own matriculated existence. I used to get into arguments with professors about this all the time, basically saying, "The story doesn't mean shit. The author didn't intended for it to mean shit. The author is on record saying the story doesn't mean shit beyond being a fun story they wanted to tell." To which, the professor basically said it doesn't matter what the author intended at all. Once the public gets ahold of it, they will decided how it is received, taught, interpreted, remembered, etc. That basically shut me the hell up, because it's true.
As for myself, the only time I'll intentionally attempt to convey a message is if I'm doing it ironically or want to deliberately poke fun at the idea of moralizing. Like, "This is why we shouldn't fuck our cousins." And the like.
As for myself, the only time I'll intentionally attempt to convey a message is if I'm doing it ironically or want to deliberately poke fun at the idea of moralizing. Like, "This is why we shouldn't fuck our cousins." And the like.
defaux
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Calling it a Moral does feel a bit lofty and intimidating. I remember as a child, being asked What's the moral of the story? Like it's some kind of lesson you need to learn. I couldn't presume to write something with such expectation.
I concur with Homer and others that have suggested stories carry meaning whether intended or not. I believe that is true. And, I believe, the authors put it there whether intentionally or not. We write with our own biases and moral preconceptions, and those get imbued into our characters, even if only on a subconscious level. I don't think that's avoidable. Often, attempts at avoiding such things result in polarising to the opposite side of the scale. By acknowledging them, we have an opportunity to shape how they impact our story.
It doesn't need to be overtly pushing an agenda, though it might be. Orwell had a clear agenda, and wrote to it with strength.
Le Guin herself did a fair bit of moralising, though perhaps more the thought provoking kind.
Tolkien on the other hand, claimed not to have any specific message, yet there is a lot can be drawn from his work.
You don't need to embed a lofty moral lesson for a story to be meaningful. You have chosen to write about a topic/theme that is (presumably) interesting to you, and your opinions are as valid as anyone's. How you present them depends on your goals, and entertainment is as valid as persuasion. Being aware that they exist can perhaps shape both your writing and how it's received.
If you present a strong opinions, you can expect to meet opposition. I've little doubt that while my preference is to put questions into the readers mind, that my own moral framework colours how they are presented. But as writers I think we are all prepared for people to not like our work and/or disagree with us. Which is suggestive in itself of the cause.
I would posit a question: If the story does not naturally carry the message you wish to convey, is it the right story for that particular message?
I concur with Homer and others that have suggested stories carry meaning whether intended or not. I believe that is true. And, I believe, the authors put it there whether intentionally or not. We write with our own biases and moral preconceptions, and those get imbued into our characters, even if only on a subconscious level. I don't think that's avoidable. Often, attempts at avoiding such things result in polarising to the opposite side of the scale. By acknowledging them, we have an opportunity to shape how they impact our story.
Writing is a form of communication, and so it is going to communicate something.
It doesn't need to be overtly pushing an agenda, though it might be. Orwell had a clear agenda, and wrote to it with strength.
Le Guin herself did a fair bit of moralising, though perhaps more the thought provoking kind.
Tolkien on the other hand, claimed not to have any specific message, yet there is a lot can be drawn from his work.
You don't need to embed a lofty moral lesson for a story to be meaningful. You have chosen to write about a topic/theme that is (presumably) interesting to you, and your opinions are as valid as anyone's. How you present them depends on your goals, and entertainment is as valid as persuasion. Being aware that they exist can perhaps shape both your writing and how it's received.
If you present a strong opinions, you can expect to meet opposition. I've little doubt that while my preference is to put questions into the readers mind, that my own moral framework colours how they are presented. But as writers I think we are all prepared for people to not like our work and/or disagree with us. Which is suggestive in itself of the cause.
I think this is an important skill. It would be detrimental to try presenting the message at the expense of the story. Don't let either strangle the other.
I would posit a question: If the story does not naturally carry the message you wish to convey, is it the right story for that particular message?
If a reader can't take anything meaningful from a story, it's just empty calories.
Some of my writing is specifically about meaning:
jayeltee.blogspot.com
Others aren't that specific, but intend to give the reader some significance to their own life or perception of other people's lives. Or you can read a newspaper account of something happening, which doesn't intend to send a message, but you can infer meaning from it, even if it's "I wonder what will happen next if this is allowed to continue?" A story might say that the upcoming weather is not going to be good for begonias. For me, it wouldn't have much meaning, but to a gardener it could be of great interest. So the same story can have meaning for some people and not others, but that meaning isn't inherent in the story, only in the context.
Some of my writing is specifically about meaning:
To Praise God -- A Meditation on Beauty
This is a short work of fiction ... a bit of a departure from what I usually write. I hope you enjoy it. ©2016 by Jo...
jayeltee.blogspot.com
Others aren't that specific, but intend to give the reader some significance to their own life or perception of other people's lives. Or you can read a newspaper account of something happening, which doesn't intend to send a message, but you can infer meaning from it, even if it's "I wonder what will happen next if this is allowed to continue?" A story might say that the upcoming weather is not going to be good for begonias. For me, it wouldn't have much meaning, but to a gardener it could be of great interest. So the same story can have meaning for some people and not others, but that meaning isn't inherent in the story, only in the context.
Reading Grimm's right now and doing a bit of a dive into the writing vibes of fairy tale construction, everything has a moral or lesson. Every damn one, even the ones that are only a paragraph long. You can see how parents would use them to make their kids behave, and how moral-political entities simultaneously attempted to subvert the adults. But I wouldn't call them overly moralistic... not like overt faith-based tales, of which, there is plenty of overlap with the fairy variety. Heinlein is routinely criticized for being subversive, but having read my fair share, I'd say it's pretty tame. Maybe it's a generational thing. The lens of the 1950s - 60s is beyond opaque now.
And while the moral might not always be apparent in fairy tales, here are some pro-tips to get you safely through your day.
And while the moral might not always be apparent in fairy tales, here are some pro-tips to get you safely through your day.
- If you see dark woods, don't go into them.
- Should you find yourself in the woods and see a cottage or dwelling of any kind, don't go inside. If it ain't suppose to be there, there's probably a good reason.
- Should you encounter an old woman living by herself against all medical logic... run.
- Don't go near wells. Ever. Anything of value will invariably find it's way to the bottom of said well. Be it jewelry, magic artifacts, your kid's last meal, or your own ass. Wells serve no purpose beyond being a vessel for things to fall tragically into them.
- Should you encounter a rich king with a beautiful, nubile, and strangely available daughter, ask him, "The bitch isn't crazy is she?"
- If somebody gives you a set of keys and tells you can enter any room but one, think long and hard why that might be.
- Should you awake from a long slumber and feel heavier than normal, don't move and seek immediate medical attention. There is a good chance your stomach has been sown open, filled with rocks, and sown back shut. Standing up might be a bad idea.
- Familiarize yourself with your loved one's handwriting. Should you receive a note with instructions that appear out of character--like kill the children and toss them down a well--consider that it might be a forgery.
- Don't marry somebody with kids from another marriage. I repeat: don't marry somebody with kids from another marriage.
- If a frog starts talking to you, listen.
- Should you lose a finger, toe, arm, or even your head... don't despair! Circumstances may lead to it growing back or being reattached with minimal scarring.
- Don't trust birds... they don't have your best interests at heart.
