Inner dialogue and thoughts

[Mutineer81]

My protagonist is a thinker. Very often her thoughts aren't just the POV of the book, but rather she has dialogue with herself, for example:

----

Chuck was already on his feet again. He tilted his head, quirked a smile, and winked—clearly proud of himself.

Oh, he’s so fucking cute, Dana thought—then bit her lip hard. Shut up, Dana, stop thinking that.

She snapped her attention back to the action.

----

I find myself using she thought, she wondered, she told herself, etc., very often. Do the italics do the job of indicating inner dialogue with out the tag? Or, should I still use both, but use the tag less often once I've "trained" the reader? So to speak.

Any thoughts? Examples?

 

[Trish]

You can do it either way, it really doesn't matter as long as you're consistent. I won't be presumptuous and guess genre, but I would say read that particular genre and see how it's usually handled. Have you posted anything to workshop?

 

[Homer Potvin]

You don't need either the italics or the thought tags if you don't want, but you definitely don't want both. The italics clearly denote a thought, so tagging it would be superfluous. And annoying. There's a fine line between interior monologue and the direct thought quote that a lot of authors ignore completely. A lot of that depends on the narrative distance of your POV too. And obviously a thought quotes or delineations become less important in third person over first.

Like Trish said, best to see what your genre typically does. Unless it's literary, in which case, there's no formula. Either way you're good so long as you're consistent and not too intrusive. Italics and tags can take over the property if they're not properly trimmed.

 

[Trish]

The italics clearly denote a thought, so tagging it would be superfluous. And annoying.

This. I was trying not to sound rude and couldn't find a way, lol.

 

[Mutineer81]

You don't either the italics of the thought tags if you don't want, but you definitely don't want both. The italics clearly denote a thought, so tagging it would be superfluous. And annoying. There's a fine line between interior monologue and the direct thought quote that a lot of authors ignore completely. A lot of that depends on the narrative distance of your POV too. And obviously a thought quotes or delineations become less important in third person over first.

Like Trish said, best to see what your genre typically does. Unless it's literary, in which case, there's no formula. Either way you're good so long as you're consistent and not too intrusive. Italics and tags can take over the property if they're not properly trimmed.

Interesting. So the genre is animal fiction. The main character is neurotic. That's why I'm using inner monologue. I want the reader to feel her anger, frustration, and self-deprecation. She's also very prone to drifting off--at the wrong time(s).

 

[Mutineer81]

This. I was trying not to sound rude and couldn't find a way, lol.

Oh. All good. It's not coming off as rude. I'm literally trying to not sound like a five-year-old, so cold truth is helpful.

 

[Trish]

Interesting. So the genre is animal fiction. The main character is neurotic. That's why I'm using inner monologue. I want the reader to feel her anger, frustration, and self-deprecation. She's also very prone to drifting off--at the wrong time(s).

I had to look that up. So um... what is she? I'm not sure why you'd need inner monologue to impart feelings, but if that's the plan, just choose tags or italics, not both.

 

[Mutineer81]

I had to look that up. So um... what is she? I'm not sure why you'd need inner monologue to impart feelings, but if that's the plan, just choose tags or italics, not both.

She's a cat. It's about cats. But FYI, it's for adults, so they think and talk VERY much like people. Think: Feral Creatures and Hollow Kingdom. (If you've read them.) Basically, my cats curse, fart, get high, etc.

 

[Homer Potvin]

Interesting. So the genre is animal fiction. The main character is neurotic. That's why I'm using inner monologue. I want the reader to feel her anger, frustration, and self-deprecation. She's also very prone to drifting off--at the wrong time(s).

That's fine. If you have several layers of interior monologue you can delineate some of the more direct, talking to yourself ones with italics. Your example here:

Oh, he’s so fucking cute, Dana thought—then bit her lip hard. Shut up, Dana, stop thinking that.

Easily rewrites as:

Oh, he's so fucking cute. She bit her lip hard. Shut up, Dana, stop thinking that.

There you have a medium thought in the front and a more direct one toward the end. If the POV is already in Dana's head, the thought can't be misplaced to anyone else or interpreted as anything other than a thought. The italics can actually make it less intimate by further delineating the characters stream of thought. Many authors would write it like this:

Oh, he's so fucking cute. She bit her lip hard. Stop thinking that.

Or:

Oh, he's so fucking cute. She bit her lip hard. Shut up.

I like the last one with the "shut up" as a self command. You're clearly in Dana's head along a steady stream without any fits or starts.

But all that is stylistic stuff that might not be your jam. Up to you so long as you stay consistent.

 

[Luxuria]

I will be honest. I think if you want so much inner-thought, switch to first person.

 

[Mutineer81]

That's fine. If you have several layers of interior monologue you can delineate some of the more direct, talking to yourself ones with italics. Your example here:

Oh, he’s so fucking cute, Dana thought—then bit her lip hard. Shut up, Dana, stop thinking that.

Easily rewrites as:

Oh, he's so fucking cute. She bit her lip hard. Shut up, Dana, stop thinking that.

There you have a medium thought in the front and a more direct one toward the end. If the POV is already in Dana's head, the thought can't be misplaced to anyone else or interpreted as anything other than a thought. The italics can actually make it less intimate by further delineating the characters stream of thought. Many authors would write it like this:

Oh, he's so fucking cute. She bit her lip hard. Stop thinking that.

Or:

Oh, he's so fucking cute. She bit her lip hard. Shut up.

I like the last one with the "shut up" as a self command. You're clearly in Dana's head along a steady stream without any fits or starts.

But all that is stylistic stuff that might not be your jam. Up to you so long as you stay consistent.

Gotcha. I'm thinking italics without the tag. (Thanks for rewriting.) Dialogue is my strength--my beta readers have all said that--so I'm trying to showcase that the most. The main character is a savage on herself, which is VERY important to her growth. So, cool. This feedback helps. I'll likely be on the hunt for my tags when I sit with a true first draft and listen to it.

 

[Mutineer81]

I will be honest. I think if you want so much inner-thought, switch to first person.

I'd thought about it, and tried. But first person is not my jam. My writing sounds super juvenile when I do it. And most of what I read is third person.

 

[Luxuria]

I'd thought about it, and tried. But first person is not my jam. My writing sounds super juvenile when I do it. And most of what I read is third person.

That’s fair. I used to think that myself, but once you get into first person, it doesn’t read as childish. I understand though that you prefer third and I believe you can make it work.

 

[Homer Potvin]

Gotcha. I'm thinking italics without the tag. (Thanks for rewriting.) Dialogue is my strength--my beta readers have all said that--so I'm trying to showcase that the most. The main character is a savage on herself, which is VERY important to her growth. So, cool. This feedback helps. I'll likely be on the hunt for my tags when I sit with a true first draft and listen to it.

You never need a tag and italics at the same time. The thought tag is usually used contextually when one line in a particular paragraph surrounded my declarative statements might be naturally mistaken as such instead of a thought/opinion. I'm going to totally butcher this, but something like:

Bobby didn't think he could finish his third martini.

Is a declarative statement about a thought. Not a direct thought that could or could not be italicized or tagged. But if it was inside a paragraph like:

"The room tilted a bit to the left as the artichoke dip gurgled up his throat. Somewhere in the background a woman laughed but it sounded like it was coming from inside a tin can. There was no way he could finish the martini, he thought, without blowing chunks from here to the tap handles."

That's a terrible example that doesn't illustrate the point I'm trying to make at all haha. Maybe I'll think of a better one.

I'd thought about it, and tried. But first person is not my jam. My writing sounds super juvenile when I do it. And most of what I read is third person.

I'm with you. I wouldn't call it juvenile necessarily, but I always have a hard time picturing a character doing things while simultaneously narrating them in a way we can see but none of the other characters can. It always feels disembodied to me. The Hunger Games messed me up with that--and the present tense--every time Katniss was about to die. It was like, well, you're talking about it directly so I assume it's not going to kill you. And how the hell do you have time to talk about it anyway with death being so close?

I understand that's not how first person works at all but I can't get around it sometimes.

 

[Trish]

She's a cat. It's about cats. But FYI, it's for adults, so they think and talk VERY much like people. Think: Feral Creatures and Hollow Kingdom. (If you've read them.) Basically, my cats curse, fart, get high, etc.

I haven't read those, no, but if it's for adults Homer's recommendations are solidly in line with what I would do. As to first person (I agree it would work well for this if you were comfortable with it), you only have to remember that you only see what the character sees, hear what they hear, feel what they feel. Nothing else. If they can't hear it, see it, or remember it, it doesn't exist. If it's uncomfortable for you though, definitely don't do it, lol.

 

[Naomasa298]

Gotcha. I'm thinking italics without the tag. (Thanks for rewriting.) Dialogue is my strength--my beta readers have all said that--so I'm trying to showcase that the most. The main character is a savage on herself, which is VERY important to her growth. So, cool. This feedback helps. I'll likely be on the hunt for my tags when I sit with a true first draft and listen to it.

How it's formatted will often come down to a house style, but one thing to note is that using tags creates more narrative distance. It depends how close you want to be to the character. I will often switch between the two in the same story.

 

[JLT]

I think it might be nice to use that thought tag along with the italics for the first time or two that you are indicating thought, just to let the reader know what your conventions are. After all, readers usually need all the help they can get. But after that, once the convention is established, you can probably dispense with the thought tags.

 

[Trish]

After all, readers usually need all the help they can get.

I don't know about that. Italics for thoughts is a pretty clear thing, with or without beating a reader over the head with it. Readers are smarter than you're giving credit for here.

 

[Banespawn]

Interesting. So the genre is animal fiction. The main character is neurotic. That's why I'm using inner monologue. I want the reader to feel her anger, frustration, and self-deprecation. She's also very prone to drifting off--at the wrong time(s).

You don't need to use direct thoughts to achieve that.

IMO, direct thoughts are a crutch a lot of writers use to convey emotion, and the result is usually less effective than the alternative, which is to convey those emotions indirectly.

There is a style of 3rd person called Free Indirect Discourse. This combines the closeness of 1st person with a 3rd person narrator. The narrator is still the one telling the story, but we are so close to the character, and the words on the page are so colored by the character's voice, that we forget about the narrator entirely.

You aren't just reporting the character's emotions. It's essentially writing what you wrote, but in 3rd person.

Oh, he was so fucking cute.

Dana bit her lip hard, then shook her head as though that simple denial could somehow abrogate her instant attraction.

She wouldn't think about him. Couldn't think about him. She turned back to the action, refusing to be distracted, even as her heart thumped faster and the heat of a blush filled her face.

Everything remains in 3rd person past tense, but the same thoughts still come through in her voice.

IMO, doing it this way it far superior to using direct thoughts.

 

[Homer Potvin]

I think it might be nice to use that thought tag along with the italics for the first time or two that you are indicating thought, just to let the reader know what your conventions are. After all, readers usually need all the help they can get. But after that, once the convention is established, you can probably dispense with the thought tags.

What else would italics be mistaken for? Aside from proper names of titles or ships or something?