Characters and prayer.

[Rath Darkblade]

As some of you may know, my MC is a 10th-century, Icelandic, female teenager, on the cusp of womanhood. (Phew. What a challenge!)

In the story I'm currently writing, she prays to Thor and uses Early Modern English, i.e. "thee", "thou", "thy" etc. (I looked up how to use these properly, of course).

I'm not Christian, but I think it sounds authentic and adds an extra layer of drama. The pre-Christian Norse had no standardized 'holy book', but relied on oral tradition and sacrifice, so I'm more or less improvising the words, and trying to inject passion into them, to make them sound more convincing.

But I wonder if this is detracting from the story, since - unfortunately - one beta reader commented that it sounds tiresome. His comment says: "Your character doesn't use this in her every-day dealings with other, so why would she when she prays?" He also commented that most real-life churches don't use these any more.

That's a fair question. I could go through and change all these, but I think it sounds better if I keep these. I know that the Roman Catholics still use Latin for some church services, and google tells me that some churches (e.g. Anglicans, Quakers, Church of Latter-Day Saints) uses Early Modern. So it's not completely outlandish.

What's your view?

 

[Hammer]

I went to a Church of England school, and grew up with a few standard texts, one of which is called "the lord's prayer". It starts with "our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name". More "modern" version is "Our father who is in heaven, hallowed be your name" and, maybe because it's what I grew up with, but the original sounds a lot more sincere to me. The newer version sounds a lot more like "my mate Pete who works down the bike-shop" than an invocation to a great deity.

 

[Dogberry's Watch]

I don't know that it'd be too distracting. Consider all the things betas tell you, but in the end it's your story and how you want it to be is how it should be.

With that said, I can confirm that when I first learned how to pray (LDS) I was taught to say thee, thou, thine, thy, so I would pray that way. I don't know how much that stands up to modern LDS (haven't practiced in a long long time), but sometimes my niece will say "thank thee for this day."

Hope this helps.

 

[Homer Potvin]

But I wonder if this is detracting from the story, since - unfortunately - one beta reader commented that it sounds tiresome.

It depends. Some readers find non-standard dialogue annoying to the point that they won't read it. They won't care about accuracy or anything else, just that they want to funny words to go away. Made up languages can have a similar effect, like with Tolkien, who turns off plenty of people with that. But then there are zillions of people who love Tolkien despite all that. I'd see how many beta readers flag it.

 

[Banespawn]

My advice would be to keep it for the worldbuilding/authenticity aspects but also keep it to a minimum. Only use it in formal, spoken prayer. If the character is praying in their head, you don't need the prayer to be word for word. You can just write that she prayed to Thor for strength, or invoked the god of wisdom, or whatever.

The Lord's Prayer in Christianity apparently has a more modern version, but the one I remember includes thy, thine and art (in heaven), and people recite that all the time.

The more you include those types of words, the more of a distraction they will become, so use them sparingly.

 

[Luxuria]

I think it depends on the context of why she's praying and where? If she's in a calm situation, it might be more formal? Also, I don't know how formal Norse were with their gods. I would look to see how inscriptions were made for the Gods. The Ancient Greeks were somewhat formal. The Romans, less so and the Egyptians seemed to have been VERY formal. If you character is in a rush, like being chased or something, make this prayer less formal.

As for the language, I think I would make it the same as the rest of the dialogue. Because it would seem weird that she suddenly SWITCHED to Early Modern English when the Vikings regularly raided the English. LOL. One thing you could do to show it being more formal is just not using contractions in the dialogue.

Also, she's a teen? So, her prayers might sound a little less formal, because she might be trying to figure out what to say. Because what she said as a kid, might be weird to her now?

Example:
"Thor, I ask that you help keep me safe today when I step foot upon the shore. Is it a shore? Beach? I ask that you watch over me and keep me safe."

 

[Luxuria]

Extra note: If you wanted, you could switch to Modern Icelandic. Because it could add flavor and show historical connection. I say modern, because it should be readable to the modern reader, but also a nice Easter Egg?

For example, if I am writing a historical work set in the Reformation or the Era of Charlemagne or something, I would put some German lines in there. But modern, because it's too much of a pain for me to figure out old vs. new German. Secondly, I want it to be readable to anyone who KNOWS German now. Thirdly, I want readers to feel connected to the story through the language and maybe even be like, "German is so cool, I want to learn it." Then, when they come back after learning it, be proud of themselves for being able to read it.

 

[JLT]

As you pointed out, the context of these words got switched sometime in the last few centuries. "You" and "yours" was considered more formal in early Modern English, and was the correct words that an inferior might use to a superior. "Thee" and "thine" was more familiar, used for people with whom you were on more familiar and intimate terms.

But because people only heard "thee" and "thou" and "thine" in religious services, usually when God was addressed, the senses got reversed. Now "you" is the more familiar one, and "thou" the more elevated one, when it's used at all. (There are other vestiges in things like Christmas carols ..."O little town of Bethlehem how still we see thee lie"... and hymns and anthems that resist change.)

The Quakers and their kin used "thee" and "thine" when addressing everybody, from God to the garbage collector, as a means of conveying their idea that we are all on the same level of society, kings and commoners alike. They don't use it much anymore, because "you" serves that same all-purpose function. (At least, the Quakers I know don't use it, and I've hung around with a lot of Quakers in my days as a non-violent activist.)

One of the things I learned about German is that they still retain some of that. "Sie" and "ihnen" are the more formal terms for "you," used when addressing a stranger or a person of higher status. "Du" and "dir" are used for family and friends, and might imply some presumption if you address your superiors that way. French and Spanish have similar distinctions.

It's clearly your call whether your character regards her deity as one that she would have to address formally. If that case, it makes sense to go with "thou" and such, since that was how a person raised in a Germanic language might have phrased it.

One more thing: I wince every time I hear that character on Star Trek say something like "Thee must do this" rather than "Thou must do this." That's just bad script-writing, by somebody who thought they knew more than they did about how early modern English is constructed.

 

[JLT]

For example, if I am writing a historical work set in the Reformation or the Era of Charlemagne or something, I would put some German lines in there. But modern, because it's too much of a pain for me to figure out old vs. new German. Secondly, I want it to be readable to anyone who KNOWS German now. Thirdly, I want readers to feel connected to the story through the language and maybe even be like, "German is so cool, I want to learn it." Then, when they come back after learning it, be proud of themselves for being able to read it.

It's easy to get carried away with that, though, which is why stylists from Will Strunk to Benjamin Dreyer caution you to be careful. I tend to resent writers who use complete sentences in Latin, French, Spanish, or Russian without giving me some clue about what they mean. They seem to be writing for readers of an earlier era who had a familiarity with at least some of those languages in the course of their education. I take it as the writer's way of saying "You should know this, and you don't, so you are an uncultured person." I resent it even more if it's some archaic version of a language that confounds even Google Translate.

 

[Luxuria]

It's easy to get carried away with that, though, which is why stylists from Will Strunk to Benjamin Dreyer caution you to be careful. I tend to resent writers who use complete sentences in Latin, French, Spanish, or Russian without giving me some clue about what they mean. They seem to be writing for readers of an earlier era who had a familiarity with at least some of those languages in the course of their education. I take it as the writer's way of saying "You should know this, and you don't, so you are an uncultured person." I resent it even more if it's some archaic version of a language that confounds even Google Translate.

I understand that. But with languages, I think it depends on who you want your audience to be and so I don't see anything wrong with language inclusion if it's translatable or guessable in context. Or sometimes not! Because it's fun.

 

[Also]

I wince every time I hear that character on Star Trek say something like "Thee must do this" rather than "Thou must do this."

That does, however, comport with late Quaker "plain speech" at least as early as the American Revolution (declared 1776) and as late as the 1930s. At some point after the 1600s (when my Quaker forebears emigrated to the American Colonies), Quaker speech eliminated "Thou" in subject case, e.g., Thou dost, Thou art, Thou hast, in favor of the otherwise object-case "Thee" combined with 3rd-person verb forms, e.g., Thee does, Thee is, Thee has...

 

[Naomasa298]

Does Icelandic have a formal register?

 

[Also]

I understand that. But with languages, I think it depends on who you want your audience to be and so I don't see anything wrong with language inclusion if it's translatable or guessable in context. Or sometimes not! Because it's fun.

You give me hope for the future.

 

[Luxuria]

You give me hope for the future.

Thank you so much.