Heroes Not Winning in the End?

[Luxuria]

It's what it reads on the can. I have a story where I realize it might NOT be possible for the main characters to solve or fix the problem. Because they don't have the power to fix it and I can not think of any solutions. As such, the story world is doomed in 3 years. Which leads to several interesting thoughts from the main characters. Do they let people live in bliss, unware. Or do they try and solve all the issues so everyone can live happily until doomsday? Or, do they mercy kill everyone? Anyway, I suppose what I am asking is, would anyone like this? I love it. But also, I just... tend to write a lot of doomed stories.

Or stories where there is no way to FIX things, because logically it's not possible. Because lore, science, etc. What genre would this be? Grimdark? I donno. I just wanted to know if its appealing to have NO solutions. Even if it's not, I don't think it's possible to fix without Deus ex Machina. Because the MCs can't solve it, due to the fact that they would still have to choose who lives, who dies, etc. And the other thing, it's not really possible to leave the situation due to the fact that different sci-fi planets are sure to have different danger, germs, etc. that would just kill a bunch of the people they are wanting to save. Also, if these characters moved to a new planet, it is highly likely they might run into other aliens and war might occur. Or at best, genocide, because 'it's necessary to ensure that everyone we brought from the old planet can live peacfully'.

I suppose in short, I am feeling insecure about this ending and need reassurance it's not 'bad'.

 

[Naomasa298]

There are plenty of stories that do it. An example of which would be "Last Contact":

Last Contact - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Stuart Dren]

It's what it reads on the can. I have a story where I realize it might NOT be possible for the main characters to solve or fix the problem. Because they don't have the power to fix it and I can not think of any solutions. As such, the story world is doomed in 3 years. Which leads to several interesting thoughts from the main characters. Do they let people live in bliss, unware. Or do they try and solve all the issues so everyone can live happily until doomsday? Or, do they mercy kill everyone? Anyway, I suppose what I am asking is, would anyone like this? I love it. But also, I just... tend to write a lot of doomed stories.

Dude! Play that Soma horror game if you haven't yet.

Yeah there's always an audience for a genuinely doomed situation. There'd be range of responses to explore. Suicide, wallowing in decadence/hedonism, denial, trying to live the exact same way as before, treating ignorance as a gift etc... All those questions you're raising are indeed what adds tension. In its most simple form: The world is going to end, so what will they do about it? What would I do about it?

 

[JLT]

Neville Schutt's book On the Beach or its movie adaptation.
Any book on Masada or Gallipoli.
Or Rocky (although he only lost in the first movie)

I think the story would work if the hero is seen as doing the best they could, overcoming all the obstacles they encountered in the best way possible, and turning out to be the best version of themself.

 

[Naomasa298]

I've written a few stories where the "hero" doesn't win. The point is the journey.

Either that, or the big, scary monster having you for dinner in the end.

 

[Luxuria]

Dude! Play that Soma horror game if you haven't yet.

Oh, I will look into it. I am oddly a chicken when it comes to horror games. (Like, I jump scare easily.)

Yeah there's always an audience for a genuinely doomed situation. There'd be range of responses to explore. Suicide, wallowing in decadence/hedonism, denial, trying to live the exact same way as before, treating ignorance as a gift etc... All those questions you're raising are indeed what adds tension. In its most simple form: The world is going to end, so what will they do about it? What would I do about it?

Thank goodness! I am so glad there is. And yeah, I am planning on exploring all those options. I am still not sure WHAT the main characters will tell everyone else. Because there might be no reason to tell anyone. Yeah, these are questions to answer for sure. I also want the readers to be like, "this can't be what's happening. The main characters have to find a way to fix it! They will... right?"

I think the story would work if the hero is seen as doing the best they could, overcoming all the obstacles they encountered in the best way possible, and turning out to be the best version of themself.

Ah, yeah. I don't think this is that story. The characters try to think of all the options, but in the end, all their solutions end with millions dead. One way or another. It's interesting you say that a hero should end up being the best version of themselves, because my characters are the opposite. They either begin okay, then become slowly corrupted or begin already jaded by the world. Haha.

I've written a few stories where the "hero" doesn't win. The point is the journey.

Ah, yes. That might be interesting make happen. But I don't know HOW to make the journey worthwhile? Because the journey leads them to learn the world they know is doomed.

Either that, or the big, scary monster having you for dinner in the end.

Hahaha, does a black hole count as big, scary monster?

 

[Naomasa298]

Ah, yes. That might be interesting make happen. But I don't know HOW to make the journey worthwhile? Because the journey leads them to learn the world they know is doomed.

What does the journey reveal about themselves and the society? Does it reveal some cathartic or something darker? Or does it reveal a truth? You need something that is going to mean something to the reader.

 

[Luxuria]

What does the journey reveal about themselves and the society? Does it reveal some cathartic or something darker? Or does it reveal a truth? You need something that is going to mean something to the reader.

Ah, yes. The reveal of doom does reveal a LOT about their world, themselves and society. It does all of it. What it will mean for the reader, I don't know. But I usually don't think about what things 'mean' when I write. The messages just end up appearing on their own after the story is written. I have had readers say 'oh, it has a good message' and I'm like, 'what message?'.

 

[CatrionaGrace]

Nothing resolves a story like the end of the world.

 

[Louanne Learning]

Sometimes you win when you lose. Sometimes you find yourself when all else is lost.

 

[JLT]

Nothing resolves a story like the end of the world.

I think it was Michael O'Donoghue, a writer for the National Lampoon, who ended many of his accounts with something like "And then they all got run over by a truck."

 

[Luxuria]

Nothing resolves a story like the end of the world.

That's fair! Totally agree. It really does end the story.

Sometimes you win when you lose. Sometimes you find yourself when all else is lost.

That's also true.

I think it was Michael O'Donoghue, a writer for the National Lampoon, who ended many of his accounts with something like "And then they all got run over by a truck."

Hahahah! That's great. It's like the end of the show, Class of the Titans, where the animators made a joke ending where a piano falls on the hero group. Because they knew it was the end of the series.

 

[Naomasa298]

Space Runaway Ideon ended with the entire universe being destroyed, seemingly because the producer never wanted to be asked to produce a sequel. That lasted right up until they made a movie and slightly retconned it, although they never did make that sequel. Evangelion is similar.

 

[DLC]

I read some short story years ago about a guy trapped in his ship after some battle just drifting away with no power / limited water etc, no chance of rescue and how he slowly goes nuts, think he spaces himself?

 

[Rath Darkblade]

Any book on Masada or Gallipoli.
Or Rocky (although he only lost in the first movie)

Off-topic, but very true. Masada was a doomed fight against the odds to begin with. Gallipoli was a strategically sound idea, but was executed very badly.

And yes: I was surprised when I saw the first Rocky, which I thought was the best of the bunch because it appeared to be the most realistic (especially the ending). But yes, I know that's not saying much, because the other Rocky movies followed this formula:

- Hero at his nadir
- Someone snaps him out of it
- Our hero fights baddies! Pew pew pew!
- Our hero rescues good guys and fights more baddies implausibly!
- The end.
==================

Ah, yes. The reveal of doom does reveal a LOT about their world, themselves and society. It does all of it. What it will mean for the reader, I don't know. But I usually don't think about what things 'mean' when I write. The messages just end up appearing on their own after the story is written. I have had readers say 'oh, it has a good message' and I'm like, 'what message?'.

What message would you like it to be? For instance:

- In an average Batman movie, he saves a whole bunch of people, and in the end, he doesn't get any of the public credit.
- So, one way to read the message is: "Do good for the sake of it, even if you don't get applauded. That's the true meaning of heroism. Huzzah!"
- But maybe the real message is: "I don't get no respect, no respect at all. No regard, either." (Sorry, Rodney).

Now that I think about it, maybe your heroes could get depressed and start thinking that way. They'd go to a bar and get plastered. Then someone could come in and give them a pep talk to kick their keisters into gear. (I know it's cliche, but it works). If you want to make it funny, he could have speech idioms that only he uses, like Col. Potter in M*A*S*H: he raises and rides horses, so he uses a lot of earthy swear-words: "Horse hockey!", "Mule muffins!", "Buffalo chips!", "Pigeon pallets!" etc.

But back to the "heroes not winning in the end". I understand that your story world is a Crapsack World (warning: TV Tropes), but if your heroes don't win in the end, could they do something to offset that loss? Suppose that, in the process of losing, they also take out the Big Bad. Or suppose that the only choice they have is between "winning, but everyone else dies" or "dying to save everyone else" (aka the end of No Time to Die, with Daniel Craig as James Bond). I think plenty of readers would sympathise with your heroes if they faced that kind of bittersweet ending/choice.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

 

[Rigor Mortis]

Here's what the fairy tales don't tell us: Living happily ever after ends with old age, frailty and death!

To support my position, I've conceived an afterstory for Snow White and her 7 little buddies, but won't go there for fear I might already have lowered the mood on a thread that has inescapable apocalypse as its starting point.

Any story or plot device is workable if it's done well.

 

[Naomasa298]

And sometimes incontinence. Shitty was one of the dwarves who didn't make the cut.

 

[Casket]

Some horror movies don't have the heroes winning in the end. Some have the heroes being on the receiving end as a twist. Some even have twist endings that make the heroes do evil by trying to contend with the evil ghost/demon/supernatural force to achieve their aim.

(corrected the words "horror movies" to "some horror movies")

 

[JLT]

the other Rocky movies followed this formula:

- Hero at his nadir
- Someone snaps him out of it
- Our hero fights baddies! Pew pew pew!
- Our hero rescues good guys and fights more baddies implausibly!
- The end.

Are you thinking of the "Rambo" movies?

The first Rocky movies followed this formula:
Rocky loses
Rocky trains harder, wins
Rocky loses, and then trains even harder and wins
Rocky trains really hard and wins

Horror movies don't have the heroes winning in the end. Some have the heroes being on the receiving end as a twist. Some even have twist endings that make the heroes do evil by trying to contend with the evil ghost/demon/supernatural force to achieve their aim.

In the Broadway musical Little Shop of Horrors, Seymour dies in the end. But when Frank Oz adapted the musical to film (and a really fine one, at that), Steven Spielberg convinced him to change the ending. He told Frank that, in a play, the audience is at some distance from the actor. But movies put the actor right into the viewer's face, and there's an intimacy that prohibits allowing the good guy to die.

 

[Luxuria]

What message would you like it to be? For instance:

That's the thing. I don't know. Because I don't write like that. Messages just come OUT of the writing. The message is not put IN the writing.

Col. Potter in M*A*S*H

I LOVE HIM. He's a great character. And I get what you're saying about kicking their keisters, but I can't think of any solutions that are realistic for the universe. Because the only one I thought of was, 'move the whole solar system', but that is too big a scope for me to accept it. Not to mention, if we move the system, I don't know HOW to stop it. That was the problem. There is a WAY to move it, if I decide that's what we want to do. But an object in motion, stays in motion. There's nothing in space to really STOP it without massive collision or ending up in the same problem that caused the need for a move anyway. Not to mention that I don't think the main character CAN move it, because that's not something her creators intended for her to do- she can try, but I doubt it's possible.

but if your heroes don't win in the end, could they do something to offset that loss?

I was thinking this. Above, I said that maybe they solve all the worldly problems so everyone can live happily for as long as possible until the end.

Suppose that, in the process of losing, they also take out the Big Bad.

Well, that's might be a bit hard:

Spoiler: Spoiler

Because they are the protagonists AND antagonists. It's difficult to explain, but they are the Big Bad, essentially. But, there isn't a 'hero' opposing them, which is typical of my stories. Because they also take the hero slot as well.

To support my position, I've conceived an afterstory for Snow White and her 7 little buddies, but won't go there for fear I might already have lowered the mood on a thread that has inescapable apocalypse as its starting point.

Hahah, no worries. That sounds interesting. Feel free to PM if you want to tell me more about it.

Horror movies don't have the heroes winning in the end. Some have the heroes being on the receiving end as a twist. Some even have twist endings that make the heroes do evil by trying to contend with the evil ghost/demon/supernatural force to achieve their aim.

That's true. And that's actually closer to how the characters act. They are not evil, but they slowly realize they have to do evil to obtain their goals. So, they decide that is what they will do.