Ideas about a world where you need to give up memories in exchange for skills.

[cinamooncandy]

First of all, English is not my native language, and I haven’t practiced it in a while, so please excuse any mistakes!
This world concept is something I've been thinking about for years, but recently I've started developing it more. I don't think it's fully developed enough to become a story, but it's something.

Imagine a dystopian future — or an alternate reality, depending on how you see it — where a technology has been created that allows people to use a special ability. However, every time they use it, they must give up a memory.
I haven't decided exactly what this ability would be yet, but it would be something that everyone, rich or poor, has unlimited access to. It would also be something of paramount importance, especially for the poorest people, forcing them to use it more frequently and gradually lose more memories.
Each time the ability is used, the person must give up the equivalent of an entire day of memories. If, for example, yesterday you went to the bakery in the morning and then slept all day, you could more easily discard the memory of that day because it wasn't particularly significant. However, if you are someone with limited resources who needs to use this ability several times a day, eventually your “disposable days” would begin to run out. You would then have to start giving up important days — like the day you met your current wife.
In this case, the ability becomes much more powerful because memory is branching. You would not only lose the day you met your wife, but also all the memories connected to her, and if you had children together, you would also lose your memories with them. This would ultimately result in the complete erasure of cultural memories, traditions, and beliefs over time.
I'm not sure if I explained it very well, but that's essentially the idea.
Then comes the broader concept of society and how it would function under these conditions. I imagined things like people being paid to “store” and “preserve” other people’s memories, similar to banks where you deposit money. I also thought about wealthy individuals who, although they don't need to use this ability as often as those on the margins of society, employ servants whose sole purpose is to follow them everywhere and act as personal repositories of memory, in case they ever need to relinquish one.
These servants would have virtually no life beyond observing their employers. They would often be people who have already given up all their own memories and no longer even know who they are.

Honestly, I'm not the type of person who can write a story from beginning to end, even though I've been writing since I was very young. I just thought this concept was interesting and wanted to share it.

 

[Trish]

It is an interesting concept, though I'm curious how they would choose the day they lost? Is that a thing? Or just whatever day pops into their head?

(Also, you explained it very well, so no worries on the language)

 

[cinamooncandy]

É um conceito interessante, embora eu esteja curioso para saber como eles escolheriam o dia em que perderam? Isso é algo que eles fazem? Ou simplesmente escolhem o dia que lhes vem à cabeça?

(Aliás, você explicou muito bem, então não se preocupe com o idioma)

Que bom saber que meu inglês ainda está bom, mesmo depois de três anos sem usá-lo!

As pessoas têm total liberdade para escolher o dia em que desejam doar. Acredito que essa possibilidade seja criada por algum tipo de mecanismo implantado no cérebro que identifica essas memórias por meio da atividade cerebral ou algo semelhante. Basta pensar em algo específico a partir do dia escolhido para a doação, e o sistema faz o resto.

 

[Stuart Dren]

Haha it adds a certain weight to "Do I know you?" Or "I don't think we've met."

Naturally, swindlers would try to take advantage of this, leading to people being very mistrusting of "strangers."

Some of these memory storage people would be scribes, I'm assuming?

There was a book I read, or read about, really I don't know where this is from (Foundation series, or possibly Embassy Town?). Anyway there were dedicated witnesses who observed events and retold them exactly. Makes me think of that a bit.

Self selected memory loss could lead to a lot of interesting dilemmas. Some sci fi has prodded at this before: if you could just choose to forget a bad event or something generating sorrow, would you?

Another neat trick you could play is the POV's love interest delicately trying to regain their relationship without coming on too strong. Some suspense in leaving the reader wondering her intentions.

 

[cinamooncandy]

Haha it adds a certain weight to "Do I know you?" Or "I don't think we've met."

Naturally, swindlers would try to take advantage of this, leading to people being very mistrusting of "strangers."

Some of these memory storage people would be scribes, I'm assuming?

There was a book I read, or read about, really I don't know where this is from (Foundation series, or possibly Embassy Town?). Anyway there were dedicated witnesses who observed events and retold them exactly. Makes me think of that a bit.

Self selected memory loss could lead to a lot of interesting dilemmas. Some sci fi has prodded at this before: if you could just choose to forget a bad event or something generating sorrow, would you?

Another neat trick you could play is the POV's love interest delicately trying to regain their relationship without coming on too strong. Some suspense in leaving the reader wondering her intentions.

Lol, yes, I think most people who store memories are scribes. One thing I keep in mind is that having an education in this world is a luxury, not because schools don't exist, but because people tend to give up the memories of what they've learned. Most people would rather give up a memory of when they were learning to read and remain illiterate than forget their family or important friends, since knowledge is also a 'branched memory'. That said, knowing how to read and write is quite rare, and few people can do it.

I think a lot about introducing romance if this actually becomes a story, because although I'm not very good at constructing plots I think a lot about the protagonists. I think it would be interesting to present a protagonist with some kind of disability, like blindness, and explore how those memories work for him and how this technology reacts to them.

 

[Rath Darkblade]

Hmm. Stuart mentioned that this was done in sci-fi, but it also reminds me of one of my favourite books, Small Gods by Terry Pratchett - with an interesting twist: the protagonist (a brother in a monastery) is the only one with an eidetic (perfect) memory, and he doesn't lose 'memories'. But he is perceived by others as "stupid" or "slow", because of his naivety and his singular obsession with faith and what it means. On the other hand, his memory allows him to memorise every scroll in the library, and quote them back - or to memorise a room, and describe it perfectly. (In other words, he is the 'dedicated witness' you describe).

I won't spoil the book by saying what happens, but I highly recommend it. It's a unique perspective on the differences between rigid, unquestioning belief and independent, compassionate thought, and how they matter in religion.
==========
Back to the point of the thread. In your story-world, memories are like money. Is it possible for people to avoid using this ability at all, and thus not lose their memories? I note you haven't specified what the ability is, or how it might be useful. Can people refuse to use it, especially the poor, who have more to lose than the rich?

One last (and very dark) thought: a person losing their memories, like what happens with Alzheimer's or dementia, is very distressing to their family and friends. I speak from experience. For several years, I and my family were full-time carers to my grandmother, who suffered from dementia until eventually she couldn't recognise us. Even with medical care, it was heartbreaking to watch her suffer and be unable to help. Even now, 15 years after she died, I can't think of it without crying.

So I hope the society in your story treats these "dedicated witnesses" with sympathy and understanding, that's all.

 

[cinamooncandy]

Hmm. Stuart mentioned that this was done in sci-fi, but it also reminds me of one of my favourite books, Small Gods by Terry Pratchett - with an interesting twist: the protagonist (a brother in a monastery) is the only one with an eidetic (perfect) memory, and he doesn't lose 'memories'. But he is perceived by others as "stupid" or "slow", because of his naivety and his singular obsession with faith and what it means. On the other hand, his memory allows him to memorise every scroll in the library, and quote them back - or to memorise a room, and describe it perfectly. (In other words, he is the 'dedicated witness' you describe).

I won't spoil the book by saying what happens, but I highly recommend it. It's a unique perspective on the differences between rigid, unquestioning belief and independent, compassionate thought, and how they matter in religion.
==========
Back to the point of the thread. In your story-world, memories are like money. Is it possible for people to avoid using this ability at all, and thus not lose their memories? I note you haven't specified what the ability is, or how it might be useful. Can people refuse to use it, especially the poor, who have more to lose than the rich?

One last (and very dark) thought: a person losing their memories, like what happens with Alzheimer's or dementia, is very distressing to their family and friends. I speak from experience. For several years, I and my family were full-time carers to my grandmother, who suffered from dementia until eventually she couldn't recognise us. Even with medical care, it was heartbreaking to watch her suffer and be unable to help. Even now, 15 years after she died, I can't think of it without crying.

So I hope the society in your story treats these "dedicated witnesses" with sympathy and understanding, that's all.

I'm sorry about your grandmother. I went through a very similar situation a few years ago, and it's not easy dealing with someone in that state.

I see a person who has lost all their memories as being closer to someone suffering from amnesia, because the person remains a functional adult even after the loss. I personally think that, in this case, things like muscle memory remain strong even after you lose your memories completely, but I think that's quite debatable.
I think that if you end up losing all your memories, or a crucial one, it's very difficult to find your way back home. Most of these people get lost unless they have good muscle memory of where their house is and can get close enough to be recognized and rescued. In that case, they return home like war heroes and live normal lives with family support. As I said, most manage to live as functional adults, so the main problem is reintegrating into the family.

As for the ability, I didn't create it or define what it is because I feel that, to do so, I would have to create the entire historical and cultural foundation of this world, and I haven't reached that point yet. The fact is that this ability grants access to something essential in this world, but people with more resources can access this resource without needing the ability.
The concept is very similar to electricity, you know? You can live without a power grid, but life would be much more difficult, especially in a typical urban home.
That's why I can't define exactly what this ability actually is. If, for example, we're talking about a post-apocalyptic world where zombies exist, this ability could be something that helps kill zombies more reliably. People with more money and resources can circumvent the need for this ability because they have easier access to weapons, walls, and other protections.
Poorer people can use other means to kill them, but it will never be easier or more effective than using this ability.
Sure, I'm not the biggest fan of zombie apocalypses, but I think I explained it well.
That said, it's quite likely that there are people who would prefer to keep their memories, but their lives would be much more difficult and probably shorter than other people's.

 

[Louanne Learning]

My first question would be about the people/organization that develop this technology. What is in it for them? Do they take possession of the memories somehow, maybe bank them so they can be retrieved in the future? Or - what do they want the memories for?

My second question concerns removing the memories for one day at a time. I am not sure how this could be done? I'm not sure it aligns with the way memories are stored in the brain. Or that one day could be pinpointed.

Would the new powers gained by trading in memories reside in the space/neural network in the brain freed up by the lost memories?

Is the procedure reversible?

 

[Homer Potvin]

My first question would be about the people/organization that develop this technology. What is in it for them?

That would be my question. It's an interesting premise that has a lot of gags you can attach to it, but... why? You would need to sell that before you could do anything else with it. If it's dystopian-ish, I'd probably got with an authority that wants to remove memorizes so it inculcate the masses with new ones.

Embassy Town?

Is that the China Mieville one with the aliens who get high off of language and their dialogue is written like fractions? That book is freaking nuts. Chine Mieville is freaking nuts.

 

[Woof]

Can you give away any memories, good or bad? There are a lot of people in this world who would be glad to be rid of some memories for free, let alone for benefit. I'm thinking trauma, but also victims of crime and also perpetrators who could or would feel absolved if they could forget what they'd done.
My first thought is that if the benefit of giving up your memories is so great, what would families do for it? If it's a transferrable or mutually beneficial benefit then would they create and raise a scapegoat child who could be sacrificed for the rest of the family when needed? If so, how would they treat them? Would they fill them with good or bad memories... Which would be more difficult to live with when making/taking them? What would happen if the dynamics of their family changed ie one of the siblings died, scapegoat or not? Which loss would they choose to recover? What if the scapegoat ranaway before it was time to harvest their memories, like of there was a legal age when it was considered safe to begin?
I guess my brain goes first to asking what is the worst society could force on the individual if this was in place whereas you seem to be more curious about how the individual would make choices about how to participate in this.
I think it would be interesting if the benefit was that you traded your whole day, including the memory of it, for another fresh day added to your life. What would you give up for more life? What are you gambling? When are you satisfied? Could you transfer that benefit to others?

 

[cinamooncandy]

My first question would be about the people/organization that develop this technology. What is in it for them? Do they take possession of the memories somehow, maybe bank them so they can be retrieved in the future? Or - what do they want the memories for?

My second question concerns removing the memories for one day at a time. I am not sure how this could be done? I'm not sure it aligns with the way memories are stored in the brain. Or that one day could be pinpointed.

Would the new powers gained by trading in memories reside in the space/neural network in the brain freed up by the lost memories?

Is the procedure reversible?

Honestly, I feel that the organization behind this technology stores copies of memories they find interesting for research purposes or documentation. However, considering a dystopian future, especially something close to a dictatorial regime, what the government would gain the most by allowing this technology to circulate is narrative control. It's no coincidence that George Santayana said that those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it, and I think that fits perfectly here. It's very easy to control a population that has a gigantic gap in its historical and cultural memory.
Regarding memory removal, when I was thinking about the concept, I decided that the technology wouldn't be something exactly implanted in a person's head, but rather something fused to it. A kind of virus or organic technology that implants itself and grows along with the brain, because that way it would have much more control and access to it. Considering that this is indeed a virus, it would pass from mother to child, and people would already be born with it.
The main idea is that, having access to your brain, it can absorb conscious and unconscious memories in order to function. You just need to remember a specific moment that you want it to use, and it does the rest. Considering this, you could donate just a minute or a second for the technology to use, but that would give you almost no result, because as I said before, it is totally cumulative. For it to work well enough to generate an impact, you would need to donate nine or ten hours of memories — that is, a full day in the life of an average adult. I also think that the organization that developed this technology may have set a minimum limit or trained it to identify when a person's day begins or ends. In any case, it counts the hours.
That's why I talked about branching memories and why they happen. This technology needs chain memories, where one fact generates another, which generates another, and so on. That's why donating a whole day is possible instead of donating random memories from throughout life. And that's also why it can make you forget entire people: because the memories you have with that person are connected by that person's presence. Therefore, these memories are stronger because they contain more hours.
I like to imagine that this ability works through some kind of conversion of brain impulses. When you use it, you need to remember at least one memory from the day you want to donate so that the technology can recognize it. Then it stimulates your conscious and subconscious mind to recall everything from that specific day and makes you relive it quickly. After that, it uses the impulses your brain produces while remembering to convert them into this ability. It's like a movie playing in your head and suddenly all of that is taken away from you. As I said, it's still just a concept under development, but that's more or less the idea.
I also believe this is a permanent process. The people behind this technology could bring memories back (and they do when it is extremely important), but it's a complicated process and they don't see much profit in it. Therefore, when you donate a memory, it is rare to get it back in its entirety.

 

[cinamooncandy]

That would be my question. It's an interesting premise that has a lot of gags you can attach to it, but... why? You would need to sell that before you could do anything else with it. If it's dystopian-ish, I'd probably got with an authority that wants to remove memorizes so it inculcate the masses with new ones.


Is that the China Mieville one with the aliens who get high off of language and their dialogue is written like fractions? That book is freaking nuts. Chine Mieville is freaking nuts.

If I were to actually take this world concept and turn it into a story, in addition to making the protagonist blind or giving him some kind of sensory impairment, I would make him a descendant of an elite family or even a descendant of the creators of this technology themselves. I really like developing ambiguous, morally gray protagonists, and I think that would fit very well here.


The problem I see is that I structured this entire world as a parallel to — or critique of — cultural and historical erasure. It’s very interesting to imagine a society that somehow has all its history, facts, traditions, and beliefs erased or altered every century because, in order to survive, they need to give up that kind of identity. The issue is that writing a plot that keeps this critique active from beginning to end is very complicated, especially considering that I’m quite inexperienced when it comes to developing plots.

 

[Homer Potvin]

The issue is that writing a plot that keeps this critique active from beginning to end is very complicated, especially considering that I’m quite inexperienced when it comes to developing plots.

They're reciprocal for sure, but the plot is much more important than any critique or commentary. None of that will land without an entertaining plot to adhere. I would suggest starting with a simple story that is adjacent to all the other stuff, but not necessarily neck deep in the milieu. Then look for opportunities to connect it. The thing with social critique or commentary is that it can come off as preachy, or worse, boring if you tackle it head on. Best to keep it oblique in my opinion.

Have you ever read 1984? That's priority one if you haven't. It's still probably the best blend of dystopia and social commentary. And if you haven't, pay particular attention to how the character and plot just kind of sit in the environment for most of the book and never approach the world directly. It shifts quite a bit at the end, but walks the line masterfully for the most part.

 

[cinamooncandy]

Can you give away any memories, good or bad? There are a lot of people in this world who would be glad to be rid of some memories for free, let alone for benefit. I'm thinking trauma, but also victims of crime and also perpetrators who could or would feel absolved if they could forget what they'd done.
My first thought is that if the benefit of giving up your memories is so great, what would families do for it? If it's a transferrable or mutually beneficial benefit then would they create and raise a scapegoat child who could be sacrificed for the rest of the family when needed? If so, how would they treat them? Would they fill them with good or bad memories... Which would be more difficult to live with when making/taking them? What would happen if the dynamics of their family changed ie one of the siblings died, scapegoat or not? Which loss would they choose to recover? What if the scapegoat ranaway before it was time to harvest their memories, like of there was a legal age when it was considered safe to begin?
I guess my brain goes first to asking what is the worst society could force on the individual if this was in place whereas you seem to be more curious about how the individual would make choices about how to participate in this.
I think it would be interesting if the benefit was that you traded your whole day, including the memory of it, for another fresh day added to your life. What would you give up for more life? What are you gambling? When are you satisfied? Could you transfer that benefit to others?

That's something I hadn't thought of!

I've pretty much decided that this technology doesn't distinguish between good and bad memories and treats them the same way, but it's very likely that people simply don't know this and create their own rumors about how it works. Things like "my mother has an aunt who donated a memory of a trauma and her ability became stronger" or vice versa must be extremely common.
In any case, if families are going to raise a child to serve as a sacrifice, it's very likely that they will focus on turning that child into a genius, because considering what I said before, these memories are cumulative and apply to knowledge. The more a person knows, the more branching memories they will be able to use and the greater their ability will be. I think the main objective of a school ends up being to accumulate knowledge to use later.
Considering that everyone in this society necessarily has this technology, perhaps everyone has access to a good education, but one person is chosen to delve deeper. If that person ends up dying or running away, the others are still there and are able to fill the gap, even if only temporarily.

I actually loved your idea, but my main point is to question what would become of people who need to give up who they are in order to survive. If you had to give up the memories that make you who you are in order to gain something that could save you and your family, would you do it? Would you forget a friend of yours in order to save them too?

Another thing that made me think a lot was the idea of perpetrators forgetting their crimes in order to feel absolved. I think I watched an episode of Black Mirror that makes a similar critique, but I can't remember which one. I like the question of how long someone who doesn't remember their crimes can be considered guilty of them, or whether that person is capable of defending themselves in court if summoned. Could you consider a person who has lost their memories guilty of a crime they don't even remember committing? Is that person the same as when they had those memories, or could they be considered someone different?

 

[cinamooncandy]

São recíprocos, com certeza, mas o enredo é muito mais importante do que qualquer crítica ou comentário. Nada disso terá efeito sem uma trama envolvente. Eu sugiro começar com uma história simples, que seja adjacente a todo o resto, mas não necessariamente imersa no contexto. Depois, procure oportunidades para conectá-la. O problema com críticas ou comentários sociais é que podem subir moralistas ou, pior, entediantes se forem diretamente competitivos. Na minha opinião, é melhor manter uma abordagem indireta.

Você já leu 1984? Se ainda não leu, essa é a prioridade número um. Provavelmente continua sendo a melhor combinação de distopia e crítica social. E se não leu, preste atenção em como os personagens e a trama se mantêm imersos no ambiente durante a maior parte do livro, sem nunca interagirem diretamente com o mundo exterior. A narrativa muda bastante no final, mas, em geral, o equilíbrio é limitado com maestria.

1984 é um daqueles livros que está na minha estante há muito tempo e que eu nunca consegui ler. Aliás, agora que tenho mais tempo, talvez finalmente consiga! Sempre tive muita curiosidade por ele, porque é um dos livros favoritos da minha mãe.

Estou muito entusiasmada com o conceito e talvez finalmente consiga colocá-lo em prática, então obrigada pelas dicas!

 

[Homer Potvin]

1984 é um daqueles livros que está na minha estante há muito tempo e que eu nunca consegui ler. Aliás, agora que tenho mais tempo, talvez finalmente consiga! Sempre tive muita curiosidade por ele, porque é um dos livros favoritos da minha mãe.

Estou muito empolgado com o conceito e talvez finalmente consiga colocá-lo em prática, então obrigado pelas dicas!

You're welcome, but please be sure you post in English @cinamooncandy.

 

[cinamooncandy]

Você é bem-vindo(a), mas certifique-se de postar em inglês @cinamooncandy.

Wth I'm sure I wrote that in English. Anyway, I've already edited it.

 

[Pending]

Would someone be able to forget they have an addiction? This sounds like it might have some medical aspects to it, which is interesting.

 

[Homer Potvin]

Would someone be able to forget they have an addiction? This sounds like it might have some medical aspects to it, which is interesting.

Would it matter? As in if the memory leaves, do the physiological tendencies and neurological framework remain? Might have the opposite affect if it gets triggered by something and the character goes for the bottle not remembering that bad things happen when they drink.

 

[cinamooncandy]

Would someone be able to forget they have an addiction? This sounds like it might have some medical aspects to it, which is interesting.

I think it wouldn't make any difference if the addiction were specifically physiological, because the removal is exclusively of memories.

Perhaps the only way to get rid of an addiction is if that addiction isn't triggered by some kind of trauma or trigger.