Soft Magic, Hard Magic - who cares?!

If the character is shown to do A, B, and C early in the story, and never shown to do anything else, then we implicitly know what they can do. If suddenly at the end of the story, the character does Z, that's going to break the story, whether we're talking about a hard or soft system.
I mean... I don't think that's true. If you're talking about book 1-3 in a 4+ book series and there's an explanation for why the magic growth has happened, or even if it's been alluded to repeatedly that they're stronger than that, I don't think anything is being broken. It's if it's explicit that this is the limit and then bam it's broken with no lead up or explanation for why it's been broken, regardless of whether the magic is hard or soft.

You can carry an axe around for six years, but until there's a tree to cut down you can't show that you can do it.
 
It wasn't really what I was discussing in this thread though. It's more the idea that people regard one as superior to the other, and focus more on it than on their story and characters. It's like when people get so lost in the idea of worldbuilding that they've come up with entire economic systems, and then end up with this wonderful world which they have no idea what to do with.
I totally agree with that. World building disease affects so many. And I do get what you're saying, and agree. Neither is better than the other. The magic should serve the story, not the story serving the magic/world.
 
I can appreciate a well-defined magic system, and I see the appeal; but I definitely lean toward "soft" in my own writing, at least so far as my couple of novel series are concerned. Never really sat down to think about why that's the case, but I guess now's my chance!

Pausing here to go look up the definitions of soft and hard systems, so that I'm sure I have half an idea what I'm talking about before I proceed to talk about it.

Okay, I had it more or less right. Let's go.

As for the question of "who cares", well, I think it matters. If magic is gonna feature heavily in your story, soft vs. hard is an important choice—although I don't see why you couldn't have both in a single work. I've seen many people express their love for hard magic systems, and as I said, I get it, the first Mistborn book was great fun because of it. The fact that it elevates engagement and enjoyment for many potential readers is reason enough, if that sort of thing matters to you as a writer.

Ultimately, for me, I think the choice comes down to what fits a particular story. I haven't really tried doing a fully hard magic system before, could be a fun future challenge.

I found a thing while googling, that describes hard magic as "being logically consistent, having clear rules and limitations" and soft as "having flexibility and a sense of wonder". Well, that pretty much explains why I tend to go soft—besides being a kinda lazy writer who likes to cut corners.

My two novel series are directly related to one another, so the magic is expressed in pretty much the same way, though bound by different soft pseudo-systems. The stories is meant to be quite absurd and surreal, and the magic is an extension of that; there's a distinct element of slapstick to spellcasting in my settings.

Some might consider it lazy writing, and I'm not even sure I disagree, but I'll try to make a case for how it's totally reasonable: To a significant degree, these stories revolve around larger-than-life forces having (or trying to have) their way with the world and the characters who live it. That's the Man vs. Nature, Man vs. Supernatural, and Man vs. Fate aspect of the stories, though in Eight Barrows Braves at least, those three conflict types are largely rolled into one and the same thing. Magic is a continuation of those forces, fleeting manifestations of them. Since these forces themselves are supposed to be poorly understood (by most) as well as highly mutable, the magic should echo that, and it doesn't make sense to tack a hard system onto it. I think the mystery, unpredictability, and sheer weirdness of the magic is suitable for this kind of story. I may have sometimes (ab)used it to plot my way out of a tight corner, but...

There is a certain order to it, but instead of making it explicit, I try to show throughout the telling what each type of magic, and each practitioner, is capable of. Maybe sometimes I'll pull strange rabbits out of stranger hats, in ways that don't necessarily constitute good storytelling.

There's another kind of soft magic I like to use, and that's the eldritch kind, the dangerous kind. I think magic in Cosmic Horror should always be soft, because a huge part of the appeal is the fear of the unknown. Nobody, not the reader, not the user, should know quite what their magic is capable of, how much it'll cost, and all the horrifying ways it could go wrong. That being said, I'm sure someone out there has proved me sorely wrong by creating an awesome hard magic system for the Cthulhu Mythos.

Yeah, I think it matters a lot, I think they're both great, and I'm Team Soft all the way, baby!
 
Who cares?

Hard disagree. I care and so must others. An elaborate, well-designed magic system is so much better than something vague which cannot be well defined. That isn't to say that stories with soft magic systems are inherently bad or anything like that, but I do prefer hard magic systems with clever mechanics.

I designed a magic system for Beneath the Moonlight that is a combination of real and fake science. One of the things that I look fondly back to is how I slowly evolved it over the trilogy to what it became by the end. It added depth to the story that I could never pull of with a soft magic system no matter what I tried. Everything made sense because of it.

No one cares about a story because of "cool magic mechanics". What people read stories for is for the characters, their journeys and obstacles they must overcome, and how it affects them.
Another hard disagree. Characters are important and so is their journey of course, but so is their world, and the magic system is part of that world. It can't be ignored as simply an insignificant choice.

The truth of the matter is that every story is different and has different needs. I spent an entire year on my project working on it tirelessly and I know how important the magic system is for it. It simply wouldn't be the same story without it.

But nevermind my stories. There are plenty of novels with hard magic systems out there. Try converting them to soft magic systems, and the stories would probably just break to the point where they don't even make sense. People would be angry. And so people care.

none of it is important.
Every good author adds something to the story because it is important. There is little in a story that isn't important because it gets wiped out during drafting stages. If something isn't important, you could take it out and the story would be exactly the same.

And of course, just because you can't recall that something after finishing the story, it doesn't mean that it isn't important. We are human and we don't have computer memory. We forget things.
 
An elaborate, well-designed magic system is so much better than something vague which cannot be well defined.

I consider reducing magic down to rules completely takes away the mystique that, to me, defines magic, but each to their own. If I think a story requires one, I have no objection to using a hard magic system, but my opinion is that no story requires it, at least, no story I'm likely to ever write.

Since a story is meant to entertain, and I don't do that through mechanics, I'm going to have to continue to hard disagree with you. If you do, then more power to you.
 
I consider reducing magic down to rules completely takes away the mystique that, to me, defines magic, but each to their own. If I think a story requires one, I have no objection to using a hard magic system, but my opinion is that no story requires it, at least, no story I'm likely to ever write.

Since a story is meant to entertain, and I don't do that through mechanics, I'm going to have to continue to hard disagree with you. If you do, then more power to you.

So, what you're essentially saying is: I don't like hard magic systems and I am not going to use them. But the original post wasn't about your preferences. In highlighted text, this is the point you made, and is what I responded to you in quotes:
We've had this discussion several times, and I've always come down on the side of soft magic, where it is largely undefined. But I've come to a realisation.

Who cares?

And I responded, with good reasons you didn't really dispute, why people would care. It seems that the main appeal behind magic to you is mysticism, which is fine, but not everyone sees it that way. I see magic as a way to add conflict and battles to stories. A well-defined magic system makes power scaling much easier. I don't have to convince the reader that character A is stronger than character B. I can prove it based on the rules of the system.

Though for the record, I disagree that hard rules take away from mysticism. You can break your own rules and do something extraordinary. A good story is creative and original—only the sky is the limit.

In short, I'll repeat my original point. Every story is different and has different needs. I am not going to come here and tell you what to do. But the original post argued that nobody cares about hard magic systems. My intention was only to come here and dispute that.
 
So, what you're essentially saying is: I don't like hard magic systems and I am not going to use them.

Maybe you got so worked up that you didn't read my post properly, because I also said:

If I think a story requires one, I have no objection to using a hard magic system, but my opinion is that no story requires it, at least, no story I'm likely to ever write.


And I responded, with good reasons you didn't really dispute, why people would care.

You want me to prove a negative? That people don't care? I've read plenty of very, very good stories by multiple authors where soft magic systems have been used, but that's irrelevant.

Because everything I've said applies to BOTH hard AND soft magic systems. If your story is good, then no, people won't care whether your magic system is hard or soft. It's all about your execution. You can have the most elaborate, detailed magic system in the world, or the most wondrous, nebulous one you want, none of that matters if your plot and characters are bland and boring.

You seem to think this post is some criticism of hard magic systems, and you're taking that personally. It is not. It is a criticism of those who insist that the choice makes a difference, whatever choice you make. You think it does. I think it doesn't. You can disagree with that, but don't mistake it for me suggesting that your choice, whatever it is, is wrong.

And if you're going to make this about which one you think is "better", I'm just not going to bother continuing discussing it with you. I'm pretty sure that anything you can do with a hard magic system, I could do with a soft magic system, and anything I can do with a soft magic system, you could do with a hard one.
 
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Maybe you got so worked up that you didn't read my post properly, because I also said
I saw what you wrote, and I still stand by what I said.

Also, I'm not really worked up, so I'm not sure what you mean by that.

If your story is good, then no, people won't care whether your magic system is hard or soft. It's all about your execution. You can have the most elaborate, detailed magic system in the world, or the most wondrous, nebulous one you want, none of that matters if your plot and characters are bland and boring.
We're going in circles, dancing to the same song. Characters are not the only element of story as I've explained. Their world matters and part of a world with magic is its system.

We can use your argument to say that a setting doesn't matter either if the characters and plot are bland or boring. And that's true. But it doesn't mean a setting's importance in any way, shape or form.

That's why I'm sort of lost with what your argument is at this point.

You seem to think this post is some criticism of hard magic systems, and you're taking that personally. It is not. It is a criticism of those who insist that the choice makes a difference, whatever choice you make.
Of course it makes a difference. And I'm not really taking it personally. I wrote a trilogy with a hard magic system and I know for a fact that it was very important to the story, and that I could not have done it without it.

I'm pretty sure that anything you can do with a hard magic system, I could do with a soft magic system, and anything I can do with a soft magic system, you could do with a hard one.
Anything is a very broad, and dare I say, unwise word here. For starters, you can't even begin to write a novel the way I would do. Not to say that I'm superior in that regard or anything. Just different.

A story is a very complex result of many different elements. The author's own soul is there, you could say. I loved my hard magic system and I believe that it made a difference to the overall end result.

And if you're going to make this about which one you think is "better"
I never really said that one is better than the other. In fact, I said that every story has different needs, which is proof enough of that. I stated my preferences but I've enjoyed plenty of stories with soft magic systems. I have nothing against them. I watched Spirited Away recently and I loved how vague and mysterious everything was.

I will also redirect you to this reddit discussion where people talk about their preference. This is proof that people do care. And you can extrapolate what you see there by the 7 billion or so humans that exist.
By the way, I do not really enjoy discussions with accusations against me. I've been respectful so please be the same towards me.
 
I will also redirect you to this reddit discussion where people talk about their preference. This is proof that people do care. And you can extrapolate what you see there by the 7 billion or so humans that exist.

You can draw whatever conclusion you like from the discussion to suit your own viewpoint. No matter how many people post on a thread Reddit, it doesn't equate to the entirety of humanity. I doubt the vast majority of readers even *think* about whether a magic system is "hard" or "soft". Just like someone can enjoy both hard or soft science fiction.

By the way, I do not really enjoy discussions with accusations against me. I've been respectful so please be the same towards me.

Sorry, but I feel the same about your responses, so I'm out. I've asked the mods to close this.
 
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Sorry, but I feel the same about your responses
I reviewed my own posts and I'm fairly confident that I didn't say anything accusatory. I saw some flaws in what I wrote but nothing of the sort.

But regardless, I apologize if I made you feel negatively. I did not intend it.
 
I reviewed my own posts and I'm fairly confident that I didn't say anything accusatory. I saw some flaws in what I wrote but nothing of the sort.

But regardless, I apologize if I made you feel negatively. I did not intend it.

No problem. If you felt like I was attacking you, I apologise too. Let's leave it there for now.
 
No one cares about a story because of "cool magic mechanics".
I dunno, I’ve definitely encountered readers whose central concern is the mechanics, whether it’s them being cool and detailed or them being original. Brandon Sanderson has a lot of them, a lot of others are really into LitRPGs, GameLit, etc. Some people just really like everything to be defined and systemized.

Sometimes I wonder if the proliferation of “hard” magic systems ties in with the increasing popularity of fantasy video games and tabletop RPGs, which by their nature need magic to be harder for the sake of usable mechanics.

Otherwise, the difference does matter in certain subgenres. @Night Herald mentioned cosmic horror, and I’d add sword & sorcery. I actually had an S&S magazine reject a short story of mine solely on the basis of magic mechanics; they felt it was a little too “hard” for S&S.

Meanwhile, I don’t think you could do something like Mistborn, where so much of the plot is driven by investigation of and experimentation with the three Metallic Arts, in a truly soft system.
 
Otherwise, the difference does matter in certain subgenres. @Night Herald mentioned cosmic horror, and I’d add sword & sorcery. I actually had an S&S magazine reject a short story of mine solely on the basis of magic mechanics; they felt it was a little too “hard” for S&S.

It sort of depends, I think, how you are treating the genre. Cosmic horror, for example. The general feeling for the genre is that the horror is so vast compared to humanity that it is unknowable, but I've seen some stories that treat it like a puzzle to solve - to learn the rules that govern the horror, and stave it off for one more generation. That is when it starts to lean "harder".

From my experience of S&S - and most genres in general, I'd say - magazines are looking for character-driven stories. The danger with a harder magic system is that it starts to become more about the system. But some publications are actually looking for that, so it depends on the particular magazine's editorial preferences. It's actually true with modern sci-fi as well. Asimov's or Clarkesworld aren't as interested in the science as the characters. They explicitly say that in their guidelines. The science should ideally be integral to the story, but that's not really the deal-closer or deal-breaker for them (they also publish fantasy).

I agree though that, if a magazine specifically says "swords & sorcery", they are usually looking for more classic tone, more in the style of Robert E. Howard than Brandon Sanderson.
 
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