Is it incest?

[Naomasa298]

Okay, cool. I am not sure how a Christian Church works, but it's possible the preist would look up any possible known relations in the baptism records.
Oops. I am sorry! I got confused because of the age gap. Honestly though, I have heard Dear Prudence horror stories about this scenario.

Help! I Married My Stepbrother.

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Might work for inspiration of how this might 'accidentally' happen. (Even though in the story it's intentional.)

That's the thing - if the vicar looks up her relations through her baptismal records, he won't find her new adopted family. He'll only find her original family. He can only find the adopted brother by looking at the central government records, which he doesn't have access to.

 

[Luxuria]

That's the thing - if the vicar looks up her relations through her baptismal records, he won't find her new adopted family. He'll only find her original family. He can only find the adopted brother by looking at the central government records, which he doesn't have access to.

Sounds like a perfect accident waiting to happen. Haha.

 

[Madman Starryteller]

For me it is incest, even if it is technically not incest. Once adopted into the family I'm sure he must have heard of her. His family must have told him about her at least, in letters, or since it's a modern story, by phone or something.

And by knowing she has become his younger sister, he shouldn't think of her romantically, he should steer such thoughts away. And the same goes for her when she learns he is her older brother. They should (but who is the autocrat to really force such things?) think of each other as siblings.

But then you added love into the mixture, and love is a real tricky beast who does not care about prudence or anything really.


Regarding the ages, I do not have the same issues with them as others because I know you can be very mature and filled with life experience as a teen (even if it might not be common) that the older person in the relationship might even learn from. These things happen, and as long as everyone is an adult, it's really between the couple.

 

[Naomasa298]

I'm sure he must have heard of her.

No - he's estranged from his family, so only finds out when he arrives back suddenly after 10 years with no contact (which is the inciting incident).

There will be a scene between the girl and the adoptive parents, when they tell her she can't because he's her brother, and she pushes back with "He's not my real brother!", which causes the parents to respond "Does that mean we aren't your real parents?".

 

[Madman Starryteller]

No - he's estranged from his family, so only finds out when he arrives back suddenly after 10 years with no contact (which is the inciting incident).

Oh, I must have missed that. Sorry.

That changes things, but only slightly. Is it a love at first sight kind of thing?

 

[Naomasa298]

That changes things, but only slightly. Is it a love at first sight kind of thing?

More or less. It's at least partly because he is a "chosen one", the one destined to protect her from her unnatural kin, which transcends earthly ties.

 

[Madman Starryteller]

Ok, I think it's an interesting dilemma. But you must ask yourself why are you adding this to the story? What purpose does it serve? To question established norms? To make the reader think about love as transcending boundaries? Or is it just there as a shocker?

If you have a somewhat clear purpose and goal for it, then go right ahead I say. Readers might find themselves at a slight discomfort, but that is sometimes the sign of good writing.

If the story is good, I don't think readers will mind. And I know that you are able to write good stories.

 

[Naomasa298]

Ok, I think it's an interesting dilemma. But you must ask yourself why are you adding this to the story? What purpose does it serve? To question established norms? To make the reader think about love as transcending boundaries? Or is it just there as a shocker?

It is largely a story about bonds - natural bonds (between parents and children) vs imposed ones (between adopted parents and adopted siblings) vs emotional (between lovers) vs group (in this case, between the girl and her inhuman kin), and how "real" these are.

 

[Catrin Lewis]

Technically no. But I'm asking more whether you'd *feel* it was incest or not?

So here's the scenario. A man's been away from home for a decade. While he's been away, the family has adopted a girl, who he's never met. She is now 18, he is 26.

He comes home and meets his adopted sister. They fall in love and eventually decide they want to marry.

So how would you, as a reader, feel about that?

I would be seriously creeped out. Legally, she's his sister. His relations towards her should be sisterly, only.

My tuppence, for what it's worth.

 

[Naomasa298]

I would be seriously creeped out. Legally, she's his sister. His relations towards her should be sisterly, only.

My tuppence, for what it's worth.

It's all feedback that's worthwhile, to judge how people would receive it. Thanks!

 

[CatrionaGrace]

My concern is that it bothers the readers too much.

Catering to real and imagined sensitivities of unknown readers is the road to literary boneyards. Just write the story.

 

[Naomasa298]

Catering to real and imagined sensitivities of unknown readers is the road to literary boneyards. Just write the story.

That's true, but it only goes so far. That might be very far, but there are certain lines you can't cross, not without the story never seeing the light of day.

 

[JT Woody]

there was a plot like this on The Fosters. Except the son wasnt away.

Wife and Wife have a biological son (from wife and her previous marriage). Together, they adopted 2 babies while the son was still small. They grew up as siblings.
The kids are now in high school, and the parents start fostering a teen girl and you middle school aged brother. the teen girl is the Bio son's age. They start having a secret relationship. They dont thinks its weird because she's not his sister. but they still keep it a secret because it feels weird.
When they are found out, everyone, including the other adopted siblings, basically shun HIM and call HIM gross and the other adopted siblings temporarily lost trust in him. he goes to live with his dad, and is out of the house and away from the other siblings.
It all gets resolved... they dont date again and take on a more platonic relationship, because the parents DO end up adopting her.
but later on in years when they are adults and they are at his wedding, someone lets slip that he used to date the adopted girl and the fiancee and her family are disgusted that he "slept with his sister."

sooooo, there is a stigma there, blood related or not.

 

[CatrionaGrace]

That's true, but it only goes so far. That might be very far, but there are certain lines you can't cross, not without the story never seeing the light of day.

Which lines? Certainly not incest. That line has been crossed so many times that one can scarcely consider it a line at all. Consider Oedipus Rex, written about 2500 years ago. Heck, consider the book of Genesis, whose author outdates Socrates by a good thousand years. Fast forward through the centuries to Simone de Beauvoir, Sylvia Plath, Iain Banks, Carol Goodman, and Margo Lanagan, among many, many others.

Lines are drawn and become uncrossable when one is writing for specific markets with strict content guidelines, or when one is writing while in the grips of fear. The former is a business decision. The latter is a personal challenge.

Great literature is not shaped by the fear of exploring a subject that will make someone uncomfortable.

 

[Set2Stun]

What're you doing, step-bro?

They've never met before, aren't related, and are legally adults. That part of it doesn't factor into the romance at all. Green light!

Since it's contemporary, the 18F and 26M definitely does have an ick factor. 18F in the 70s compared to an 18F in the 2020s, they're not even close to being the same thing.

This was the rule we all used back in the day - age divided by 2, + 7 = acceptable age gap.

26/2 = 13 + 7 = 20

Therefore, it's only appropriate for a 26-year-old to date a 20+-year-old. It's not a perfect system, but I say it does identify potentially problematic outliers

 

[Naomasa298]

Which lines?

If someone puts out a story that is child erotica porn, they might as well give up on it ever being published, Lolits notwithstanding, and probably risk kissing any notion of a literary career goodbye, not to mention jail time. Sorry, but that's simply reality, whether we want it to be true or not. Yes, that's an extreme example, but the lines *are* there. There are plenty of taboo subjects out there.

 

[Naomasa298]

This was the rule we all used back in the day - age divided by 2, + 7 = acceptable age gap.

26/2 = 13 + 7 = 20

That's supposedly the ideal age for a man to date a woman, not just an acceptable one, IIRC.

I could re-set the story in the 1960s and make everyone a hippy...

 

[Luxuria]

If someone puts out a story that is child erotica porn, they might as well give up on it ever being published, Lolits notwithstanding, and probably risk kissing any notion of a literary career goodbye, not to mention jail time. Sorry, but that's simply reality, whether we want it to be true or not. Yes, that's an extreme example, but the lines *are* there. There are plenty of taboo subjects out there.

There is a huge difference between legal and moral lines. Moral lines are personal and legal ones are well, legal ones. In the US, the First Amendment covers a lot of ground. Incest in fictional stories are not crossing any legal lines I know. Moral, sure. But I think this is where the UK and US differ greatly. The work in the US would have to have no artistic value at all in some cases for the government to even care. The state of Texas had a lawsuit about obscene stories and materials if I recall and this was part of the legal line. I can find that case.

Nevermind. It wasn’t Texas. But the Miller Test is what the US uses.

Citizen's Guide To U.S. Federal Law On Obscenity

www.justice.gov

 

[JT Woody]

The state of Texas had a lawsuit about obscene stories and materials if I recall and this was part of the legal line. I can find that case.

No no, you are correct.
A texas law maker wanted to prosecute librarians for distributing obscene materials to children (i.e. books they deemed inappropriate)

I can find the exact articles when im on my computer (i am on my phone, and it is so much more tedious to find and link articles)

 

[Naomasa298]

here is a huge difference between legal and moral lines. Moral lines are personal and legal ones are well, legal ones. In the US, the First Amendment covers a lot of ground. Incest in fictional stories are not crossing any legal lines I know. Moral, sure. But I think this is where the UK and US differ greatly. The work in the US would have to have no artistic value at all in some cases for the government to even care. The state of Texas had a lawsuit about obscene stories and materials if I recall and this was part of the legal line. I can find that case.

Incest is *both* a legal and moral issue. And anyway, the lines aren't as stark as that. Just because something is moral, that doesn't make it legal and vice versa.

Just because something is legal, it doesn't mean that doing it, or writing about it is a good idea.

And in my case, my concern is neither. It's whether the "ick" factor will put people off reading it. Some people say you shouldn't care what readers think, and up to a point, I agree, but in this particular case, I do care.

It's my story, so I can care if I want to. It's actually something I'm not all that compelled to write, so if the ick puts people off, I won't bother with it, and I'll do something else, which I care about more. It's just an interesting premise, to me.