Optimistic Idealism. Dead? Boring?

It could be written as a slice of life type story. I can imagine many ways to make it somewhat exciting. Everything doesn't have to be about death and explosions all the time.

How about something like this:
Markise is attending the utopian world faire, he wants to find a partner for a great dance among all the women of the city. Can he find the right partner in time? Follow Markise in a world of richness and splendour as he meets all sorts of unique women and try to date them in the backdrop of floating sky palaces and self-driving flying taxis.

The above becomes a story of if he can find the right partner for the dance in the right time. As the story progresses we meet many strange and even eccentric women and characters who have their live's needs fulfilled and who focus on their own character development as well as some strange or unique hobbies/interests. One such hobby could be to collect stones from all the highest mountain tops in the galaxy, and what they may have seen.
Sure, but is that a Utopia? He doesn't have everything he needs if he's longing for a partner, does he? And why does he want one? Prestige? Approval? Companionship? All of those things suggest that his needs are not met. If there are humans in a utopia - it's not a utopia. Someone is always going to covet something someone else has and fuck it up for everyone.

Of course things don't always have to be about death and explosions (pretty big jump from utopias are boring), but conflict is what drives a story. Even in slice of life, there is something they need to do, get to, something. Even if it's just going to the store to get toothpaste. Even if it's just emotional or growth related, there's still something more.
 
Sure, but is that a Utopia? He doesn't have everything he needs if he's longing for a partner, does he? And why does he want one? Prestige? Approval? Companionship? All of those things suggest that his needs are not met. If there are humans in a utopia - it's not a utopia. Someone is always going to covet something someone else has and fuck it up for everyone.

Of course things don't always have to be about death and explosions (pretty big jump from utopias are boring), but conflict is what drives a story. Even in slice of life, there is something they need to do, get to, something. Even if it's just going to the store to get toothpaste. Even if it's just emotional or growth related, there's still something more.
Maybe he doesn't specifically need a partner, but would have fun dancing with someone?

You're right, though, that with humans a utopia wouldn't last long.

Can't something be considered a utopia even if there are still some basic needs that aren't fully resolved, such as love/companionship/travel? I think one can still have a utopia even with flawed people in it. As long as those people don't constantly kill each other...

The utopia is the society at large, not necessarily that everyone must have a great time, right?

I don't know.
 
I think one can still have a utopia even with flawed people in it.

I think so, too. I mean, how do we define "idealistic" or "perfect?" It doesn't have to mean there is no suffering, but that people are comforted in their suffering. Having all of one's needs met, whatever those needs might be.
 
Because Utopias are boring. If everyone is happy and has everything they need, what is there to write about?
The anthropologist David Graeber observed that societies throughout history exhibit a dialectic between the everyday life of a people and their mythology. Peoples who enjoy a relatively peaceful and free existence often develop mythologies that are quite the opposite – full of warring gods and malevolent spirits.

The same may be true for us. In the ‘West’, we live largely docile lives. The violence we are all capable of is mostly confined to our myths – our novels, films, video games, etc. There’s a long-running discussion about the influence of violence in media on behaviour; I subscribe to the view that these forms provide a relatively safe outlet through which people can project the darker aspects of the psyche.

By contrast, if I were living in a violent, oppressive society in which every day was conflict, fear, and anxiety, I wouldn’t be looking for more of the same in my leisure reading. Utopian fiction would, at that point, become far more compelling – perhaps a little like the Bible. I can understand how, if you believe your life is ‘nasty, brutish and short’, reading about Heaven could be appealing. It is relevant, perhaps, that in societies where social support has advanced considerably over the last century, religious fundamentalism has retreated.

This is not to suggest that the apparent dearth of utopian fiction exists because we’re already living in a utopia. But, as @Heartlet Happer pointed out previously, in some respects many of us do enjoy relatively comfortable lives. So long as we’re ‘free’ to buy a bigger TV than our neighbour, and so long as our favourite coffee shop doesn’t run out of skinny decaf lattes with hazelnut milk, all appears well in the Universe.
 
The anthropologist David Graeber observed that societies throughout history exhibit a dialectic between the everyday life of a people and their mythology. Peoples who enjoy a relatively peaceful and free existence often develop mythologies that are quite the opposite – full of warring gods and malevolent spirits.

The same may be true for us. In the ‘West’, we live largely docile lives. The violence we are all capable of is mostly confined to our myths – our novels, films, video games, etc. There’s a long-running discussion about the influence of violence in media on behaviour; I subscribe to the view that these forms provide a relatively safe outlet through which people can project the darker aspects of the psyche.

By contrast, if I were living in a violent, oppressive society in which every day was conflict, fear, and anxiety, I wouldn’t be looking for more of the same in my leisure reading. Utopian fiction would, at that point, become far more compelling – perhaps a little like the Bible. I can understand how, if you believe your life is ‘nasty, brutish and short’, reading about Heaven could be appealing. It is relevant, perhaps, that in societies where social support has advanced considerably over the last century, religious fundamentalism has retreated.
I like this take. Though I don't know if I would consider the Bible, or many religious texts, to be utopian fiction, unless we're referring to post-rapture? Otherwise if you changed everyone today so that they humbly embraced their suffering, but still suffered horrible fates preventable or unavoidable, I wouldn't call that a utopia. Eh, that's getting sidetracked, though.

The same may be true for us. In the ‘West’, we live largely docile lives. The violence we are all capable of is mostly confined to our myths – our novels, films, video games, etc. There’s a long-running discussion about the influence of violence in media on behaviour; I subscribe to the view that these forms provide a relatively safe outlet through which people can project the darker aspects of the psyche.
That's astounding when you think about it, if you agree that there is an indelible gravitation towards violence deep in the human psyche. I think there is, but I don't wholesale condemn it—it's who we are, and we might be the most interesting thing that will ever happen in reality. Being able to compartmentalize but still mostly satisfy an inclination, one so severe and innate by just... reading or writing a book, or being John Halo for an afternoon. Good grief.
 
Because Utopias are boring. If everyone is happy and has everything they need, what is there to write about?
They are boring to write for the same reason they are unrealistic. There is no conflict.
I think so, too. I mean, how do we define "idealistic" or "perfect?" It doesn't have to mean there is no suffering, but that people are comforted in their suffering. Having all of one's needs met, whatever those needs might be.
Therein lies the root of the issue. Everyone has different needs and and having them met doesn't necessarily equate to idealism, only survival. Utopia is about happiness, fulfilment of desire. Any given persons definition of "perfect" will differ from everyone else's.

So long as we’re ‘free’ to buy a bigger TV than our neighbour
Conflict. Self aggrandising. Materialistic. Perpetuating the cycle of desiring things one doesn't have.
so long as our favourite coffee shop doesn’t run out of skinny decaf lattes with hazelnut milk, all appears well in the Universe.
It's the closest to utopia we'll probably get, the bliss of self-delusion and ignorance. Provided my own immediate desires are being met, then all is well in the universe.
 
According to the Wikipedia article, "A utopia is an imagined community or society that possesses highly desirable or near-perfect qualities for its members."

The "near-perfect qualities" can be interpreted in many ways that could make a utopia interesting to write about. It doesn't have to be the perfect society.

I think a lot of romance stories could be set in utopias and be very interesting to both write and read. One could also explore other themes such as personal growth, learning, searching, and exploration. There's probably more that I'm not listing.

I definitely think a utopia could be a good setting for a book.

As to whether we live in one or not I think goes back to my first post, that it depends on where on our planet you are and other factors, too, of course. Some people certainly live utopian lives.
 
I definitely think a utopia could be a good setting for a book.

Especially if you hail back to the original meaning of the term “Utopia”

Sir Thomas More coined the word “Utopia” - published his book of the same name - Utopia - in 1516 (read online for free at the link) – which referenced systems and institutions – and heavily criticized government

More gives an idealistic vision for a just society – a society that is based on communal ownership instead of private property

Here is a section of the book with his conclusions -

“Thus have I described to you, as particularly as I could, the Constitution of that commonwealth, which I do not only think the best in the world, but indeed the only commonwealth that truly deserves that name. In all other places it is visible that, while people talk of a commonwealth, every man only seeks his own wealth; but there, where no man has any property, all men zealously pursue the good of the public, and, indeed, it is no wonder to see men act so differently, for in other commonwealths every man knows that, unless he provides for himself, how flourishing soever the commonwealth may be, he must die of hunger, so that he sees the necessity of preferring his own concerns to the public; but in Utopia, where every man has a right to everything, they all know that if care is taken to keep the public stores full no private man can want anything; for among them there is no unequal distribution, so that no man is poor, none in necessity, and though no man has anything, yet they are all rich; for what can make a man so rich as to lead a serene and cheerful life, free from anxieties; neither apprehending want himself, nor vexed with the endless complaints of his wife? He is not afraid of the misery of his children, nor is he contriving how to raise a portion for his daughters; but is secure in this, that both he and his wife, his children and grand-children, to as many generations as he can fancy, will all live both plentifully and happily; since, among them, there is no less care taken of those who were once engaged in labour, but grow afterwards unable to follow it, than there is, elsewhere, of these that continue still employed. I would gladly hear any man compare the justice that is among them with that of all other nations; among whom, may I perish, if I see anything that looks either like justice or equity; for what justice is there in this: that a nobleman, a goldsmith, a banker, or any other man, that either does nothing at all, or, at best, is employed in things that are of no use to the public, should live in great luxury and splendour upon what is so ill acquired, and a mean man, a carter, a smith, or a ploughman, that works harder even than the beasts themselves, and is employed in labours so necessary, that no commonwealth could hold out a year without them, can only earn so poor a livelihood and must lead so miserable a life, that the condition of the beasts is much better than theirs? For as the beasts do not work so constantly, so they feed almost as well, and with more pleasure, and have no anxiety about what is to come, whilst these men are depressed by a barren and fruitless employment, and tormented with the apprehensions of want in their old age; since that which they get by their daily labour does but maintain them at present, and is consumed as fast as it comes in, there is no overplus left to lay up for old age.

“Is not that government both unjust and ungrateful, that is so prodigal of its favours to those that are called gentlemen, or goldsmiths, or such others who are idle, or live either by flattery or by contriving the arts of vain pleasure, and, on the other hand, takes no care of those of a meaner sort, such as ploughmen, colliers, and smiths, without whom it could not subsist? But after the public has reaped all the advantage of their service, and they come to be oppressed with age, sickness, and want, all their labours and the good they have done is forgotten, and all the recompense given them is that they are left to die in great misery. The richer sort are often endeavouring to bring the hire of labourers lower, not only by their fraudulent practices, but by the laws which they procure to be made to that effect, so that though it is a thing most unjust in itself to give such small rewards to those who deserve so well of the public, yet they have given those hardships the name and colour of justice, by procuring laws to be made for regulating them.

“Therefore I must say that, as I hope for mercy, I can have no other notion of all the other governments that I see or know, than that they are a conspiracy of the rich, who, on pretence of managing the public, only pursue their private ends, and devise all the ways and arts they can find out; first, that they may, without danger, preserve all that they have so ill-acquired, and then, that they may engage the poor to toil and labour for them at as low rates as possible, and oppress them as much as they please;



I immediately thought of the philosophy of Karl Marx, so googled to see if More’s utopian ideas had influenced Marx, and found this article –

Thomas More’s Utopia and Marxist Theory: A Comparison
 
Dante's Inferno posits that Purgatory (Purgatorio) was where the virtuous non-Christians, like Helen of Troy were sent to. It was an imperfect version of heaven.

I wonder how it was meant to be imperfect? Maybe like... you can get a Big Mac and Coke whenever you want, but there's not enough secret sauce, and it's Diet Coke?
 
Dante's Inferno posits that Purgatory (Purgatorio) was where the virtuous non-Christians, like Helen of Troy were sent to. It was an imperfect version of heaven.

I wonder how it was meant to be imperfect? Maybe like... you can get a Big Mac and Coke whenever you want, but there's not enough secret sauce, and it's Diet Coke?
You can have fries, but no salt or condiments.
 
I'd suggest that Utopia doesn't necessarily have to mean some robotic, eternal existence with an absolute absence of conflict, pain, struggle, sickness and death. If those absences are required, then the description is of a robot colony with an abundance of emergency ever-readies to hand.

I could conceive of a story about a hippie commune where kindness between members is held paramount, people get what they need to survive and conflict, wherever that might arise, is handled peacefully and reasonably. It doesn't mean that there can't be sickness, death, accidents, weather issues, crop failures. There's still a story on dealing with being human in idyllic living environments. I'll not write it, but I can conceive how someone else could.
 
Has there ever been a story about a utopia that wasn't about how the utopia was rotten to the core and everyone was really miserable? I can't think of one where the utopia was just a setting and not the crux of the story. That would be interesting, I guess.
 
a story about a utopia
Fountains of paradise by Arthur C. Clarke. The setting is very close to utopia. When I first saw the book, I parked it to read only when nothing else left to read, because of title. I knew nothing about author, so I suspected him being an Eastern Block approved writer.
 
I dunno if it fits, but The World Within (Robert Silverberg, 1971) might. People live in thousand foot towers, divided into cities, by status. The lower the status, the lower they live. Sex is free - almost no one refuses sex, and everyone shares everything. One of the protagonists commits suicide because he realises it's a hollow existence, and another believes that the society is utopic only because humans have been selectively bred to fit it.
 
Fountains of paradise by Arthur C. Clarke. The setting is very close to utopia. When I first saw the book, I parked it to read only when nothing else left to read, because of title. I knew nothing about author, so I suspected him being an Eastern Block approved writer.
He's one of the godfathers of sci-fi, of 2001: A Space Odyssey, Rendezvous with Rama fame. He's also as vanilla and sterile as either can get. Mildy interesting when I was a teen but unreadable now.

I think have that one of his. Checking...
 
I don't know, but you reminded me of the movie Pleasantville. Here's the trailer


I dunno if it fits, but The World Within (Robert Silverberg, 1971) might. People live in thousand foot towers, divided into cities, by status. The lower the status, the lower they live. Sex is free - almost no one refuses sex, and everyone shares everything. One of the protagonists commits suicide because he realises it's a hollow existence, and another believes that the society is utopic only because humans have been selectively bred to fit it.
Haven't seen/read either, but both appear to be about the utopia not being all it's cracked up to be.
 
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