Subversion in Writing

[Naomasa298]

Okay, I gotta give you more of my pennies.

The allegory makes sense, except 2 things. The Tin Woodman would more likely be Military, because he is the most violent of the gang. But he also cried when he stepped on a beetle and squashed it. He seems to defend the innocent, but also inheirts the Land of the Winkies who are good tin smiths. The Winkies, when sent by the Witch of the West to destroy the gang, have spears and weapons. So, military industry. The Lion would speak more of the power of the State, or the fear of the state. For he is terrifed of people, but also confused why people are scared of him. In fact, he's a bull in a china shop, to be honest.

Those aren't my interpretations - they're the ones proposed by Quentin Taylor, a historian. Apparently, the lion is also supposed to represent failed presidential candidate William Jennings Bryan, and the winged monkeys, Native Americans. Baum seems to have held contradictory views on Native Americans, but whether or not the winged monkeys actually represents them or not, is really debatable.

It seems more likely that all of these things say more about the people who proposed them than L. Frank Baum.

 

[Luxuria]

Those aren't my interpretations - they're the ones proposed by Quentin Taylor, a historian. Apparently, the lion is also supposed to represent failed presidential candidate William Jennings Bryan, and the winged monkeys, Native Americans. Baum seems to have held contradictory views on Native Americans, but whether or not the winged monkeys actually represents them or not, is really debatable.

It seems more likely that all of these things say more about the people who proposed them than L. Frank Baum.

That's fair and it makes sense the Winged Monkeys would be natives Americans, because yes. Baum didn't really like them, which is not a good thing. But it was also the early 1900s. And I agree with you. It says more about the theorists, than the author.

 

[Naomasa298]

That's fair and it makes sense the Winged Monkeys would be natives Americans, because yes. Baum didn't really like them, which is not a good thing. But it was also the early 1900s. And I agree with you. It says more about the theorists, than the author.

He seems to have had two views - he published an article calling for their total extermination, and another one criticising their treatment at the hands on white men.

But this is getting off-topic.

 

[Stuart Dren]

No, speculative fiction is great for subversion, but Handmaid's Tale is really out there. Not sure if you've read it before (it's definitely worth it), but like Louanne said, it's borderline preposterous. Like, the themes and warnings it presents are definitely relevant, and it does point to a system that deservers undermining, but the actual mechanics aren't terribly realistic. And it's more of a proscriptive story than a cautionary one, if that makes any sense, in that the story believes the premise is a possible outcome. It's also really overt. Animal Farm, on the other hand, doesn't pretend as if the premise could actually happen and is sooooooo ridiculous, it's actually poignant. You also have to deliberately look for the meaning in Animal Farm where's Atwood's message is dead on the nose.

I haven't read The Handmaid's Tale. I had sort of written it off, but given the different interpretations even in this thread I'm inspired to give it a try.

 

[Homer Potvin]

I haven't read The Handmaid's Tale. I had sort of written it off, but given the different interpretations even in this thread I'm inspired to give it a try.

It's good and totally worth a read. Very polarizing... more so now than before, I feel.

Regarding the Wizard of Oz, who the hell are the winkies?

 

[Trish]

Regarding the Wizard of Oz, who the hell are the winkies?

The "Oh-eh-ah" guard dudes of the West witch.

 

[Luxuria]

It's good and totally worth a read. Very polarizing... more so now than before, I feel.

Regarding the Wizard of Oz, who the hell are the winkies?

The people who live in the west. In the movie, they are the witch’s guard. But in the book, they are skilled smiths and are normal looking.

 

[Louanne Learning]

Two genres of fiction that I recently learned about that are examples of subversive writing - transgressive fiction and dirty realism. Both of these subgenres are more modern - the term “dirty realism” wasn’t coined until the 1980s.

Dirty Realism is … about the belly-side of contemporary life – a deserted husband, an unwanted mother, a car thief, a pickpocket, a drug addict – but they write about it with a disturbing detachment, at times verging on comedy. Understated, ironic, sometimes savage, but insistently compassionate… a variety of literary minimalism … (showing characters) in ordinary, unremarkable occupations, and often a lack of resources and money that creates an internal desperation

Transgressive fiction deals extensively and graphically with taboo subject matter (like sex, drugs, or violence) and features protagonists who may seem mentally ill, anti-social, or nihilistic. They feel confined by the norms and expectations of society and break free of them in unusual or illicit ways.

 

[Trish]

Two genres of fiction that I recently learned about that are examples of subversive writing - transgressive fiction and dirty realism. Both of these subgenres are more modern - the term “dirty realism” wasn’t coined until the 1980s.

Dirty Realism is … about the belly-side of contemporary life – a deserted husband, an unwanted mother, a car thief, a pickpocket, a drug addict – but they write about it with a disturbing detachment, at times verging on comedy. Understated, ironic, sometimes savage, but insistently compassionate… a variety of literary minimalism … (showing characters) in ordinary, unremarkable occupations, and often a lack of resources and money that creates an internal desperation

Transgressive fiction deals extensively and graphically with taboo subject matter (like sex, drugs, or violence) and features protagonists who may seem mentally ill, anti-social, or nihilistic. They feel confined by the norms and expectations of society and break free of them in unusual or illicit ways.

I, personally, have a hard time considering something like dirty realism to be subversive. To accept that definition, you have to accept that idealism is the norm, and maybe that's true. Maybe it was true. I don't think it was though, considering how many classics exist on the same plane. I think it's just another coined term to imply that the ideal is what should, or is usually, what a writer should strive towards. Frankly, I think it's bullshit. Realism is realism. It's not "dirty" realism because the subject matter offends delicate sensibilities. In my opinion.

 

[Naomasa298]

Judging by the wikipedia description, it's a style that MFA and MFA adjacent authors - those who choose to, and those who can only - write like that would love. Respect for people who choose that style of writing.

 

[Rigor Mortis]

Besides all that, we are looking at all this from particular optics. The readers within their contexts have a massive bearing on the subversive nature of the writing. Reading 1984 in a bedsit in Dublin is kinda different to the same activity in Stalin's Russia, and maybe other places where it occupies the "banned" list (for the history nerds, I don't know that Stalin's CCCP banned 1984 (the book, not the year, though CCCP did boycott the LA Olympics in 1984)). Imagine reading Handmaid's Tale in Kabul today, or Satanic Verses in Riyadh.

After I'm done with Tortilla Flats, I'm bumping Handmaid's Tale. Homer's never set me wrong before, though 100 Year's of Solitude, however brilliant, is batshit crazy and not the solemn treatise I expected for some reason.

 

[Homer Potvin]

Handmaid's Tale. Homer's never set me wrong before

It's a solid B+. It's the type of book that probably scales from an A to a C- depending on when you read it in your life. Kind of like watching Reservoir Dogs for the first time at 16 vs 53.

 

[Louanne Learning]

Another interesting genre of subversive literature is the bizzarro genre. It’s more fun to write than serious subversive stuff.

Bizarro fiction is a contemporary literary genre which often uses elements of absurdism, satire, and the grotesque, along with pop-surrealism and genre fiction staples, in order to create subversive, weird, and entertaining works.

I was involved in an RPG on another forum that was written in the bizzarro genre. Here’s how we described it there -

“Bizarro” – The most important elements of bizarro fiction are that it is weird, outlandish, and fun to read. There’s an emphasis on humour, ridiculousness, absurdism, and satire. At the same time, it can be fascinating and thought-provoking, in a light-hearted, entertaining way.

And again – it is subversive as long as it subverts something