The Science Thread

[Rath Darkblade]

Did something exist before time and space which presumably created time and space?

It is entirely possible that time and space existed before the Big Bang, certainly.

Well .... given that "time", "space", and "the Big Bang" are human names for an attempt to impose order on an ungovernable and chaotic universe, we'll probably never know if this is true.

Yes, It's possible that time and space existed before the Big Bang. It's also possible that they didn't. How can we tell, except by studying the matter further?

As for time and space: how can we say that "time and space" created "time and space"? That's like a theologian saying "And God created God", which makes no sense. *shrug* It would be more correct to say that humankind created time and space.

After all, what is "time" but our attempt to divide time into nano-seconds, seconds, minutes, hours, days etc.? Where else but on earth can such a concept be found? There's no time on, say, the moon. Until we got there, there were no calendars there and no watches, not even our ever-so-nifty digital ones.

After all, what is time to the moon? Or Mars? Or Alpha Centauri? Celestial bodies don't care about time. Or space. They don't care about anything. They just are.

Come to think of it, do cats or dogs or trees or waterfalls care about time and space? No. Only human beings care enough about them to worry about them.

So I say, let's not worry about something we can't see and can't control. Like God or gods, whoever he, she, it, or them might be. If a deity exists, I dare say he (just to avoid repeating all the pronouns) has enough on his/her/their/its plate, what with running the universe and everything, and doesn't need me to distract him with my prayers ("Yeah yeah yeah, I know, I'll get you through that operation. Get outta here, will ya?"). And if he/she/they/it doesn't, then my worship is pointless anyway.

Absolute logic can be a great source of consolation in times of strife. Sorry!

 

[Naomasa298]

After all, what is time to the moon? Or Mars? Or Alpha Centauri? Celestial bodies don't care about time. Or space. They don't care about anything. They just are.

"Time" is not a philosophical construct.

So I say, let's not worry about something we can't see and can't control. Like God or gods, whoever he, she, it, or them might be. If a deity exists, I dare say he (just to avoid repeating all the pronouns) has enough on his/her/their/its plate, what with running the universe and everything, and doesn't need me to distract him with my prayers ("Yeah yeah yeah, I know, I'll get you through that operation. Get outta here, will ya?"). And if he/she/they/it doesn't, then my worship is pointless anyway.

Absolute logic can be a great source of consolation in times of strife. Sorry!

Seriously, what are you talking about?

 

[Louanne Learning]

But of course time is not just a matter of clockwork. it's not only a matter of duration. It has three different aspects -

1. Time labels moments in the universe. Time is a coordinate; it helps us locate things.
2. Time measures the duration elapsed between events. Time is what clocks measure.
3. Time is a medium through which we move. Time is the agent of change. We move through it, or—equivalently—time flows past us, from the past, through the present, toward the future.

From Eternity to Here, pg. 10

 

[Schism]

But of course time is not just a matter of clockwork. it's not only a matter of duration. It has three different aspects -

1. Time labels moments in the universe. Time is a coordinate; it helps us locate things.
2. Time measures the duration elapsed between events. Time is what clocks measure.
3. Time is a medium through which we move. Time is the agent of change. We move through it, or—equivalently—time flows past us, from the past, through the present, toward the future.

From Here to Eternity, pg. 10

Are you going to be writing a time themed story next?

 

[Rath Darkblade]

"Time" is not a philosophical construct.

Agreed -- to an extent:

1. I never said that "time" was a philosophical construct, only a human one.

2. Let's stop and think about Time for a moment. It's not a philosophical construct now, but as well as being a scientific concept for many centuries (water-clocks, sun-clocks, and so on), it was a religious construct for much, much longer. Kronos/Chronos, the Norns, the Wyrd, the Morrigan -- and some older even than that.

If we accept that Time is a religious construct, then it inevitably follows that it was also a philosophical construct. After all, what would religion be without philosophy? Philosophy provides the critical reasoning, logic, and ethical structure that prevents religious devotion from becoming dogmatic, enabling deeper understanding rather than blind following. Without philosophy, religion is simply bloodthirsty fanaticism.

Seriously, what are you talking about?

Before I start, let me state a caveat: I am not trying to start a flame-war of any kind, or trying to offend anyone. My philosophical/spiritual leanings are my own. I'm not telling anyone what to believe. They might be crude or erroneous; after all, I am only mortal.

Your comment strikes me as possibly confused or even hostile - I cannot judge - but I'm not assuming hostility on your part.

Having said that, my post was perfectly simple. I'll break it down:

- Time, as a concept, only exists because humanity says it exists. As we've established, celestial bodies, florae and faunae don't care about time.

- Since this is the case, can we truly say that time exists if we ceased to believe in it? (As Ford Prefect states, "Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so.") But leaving aside Adams, no less an authority than Einstein's theory of relativity suggests a four-dimensional, static universe where past, present, and future coexist, rendering the "flow" of time a subjective perception.

- So since, rhetorically speaking, we cannot see or control time, does it truly exist?

- And if that is true, and time does not exist, then pursuing the rhetoric further, does God -- or any other deity -- can logically be said to exist? (Adams, again, has something to say about that).

- And finally, following this rhetoric to either its logical or absurd conclusion (depending on your point of view): if a deity does not exist, why pray to one? And if a deity (time, God, Thor, whatever) does exist, and is as powerful as it is made out to be, then how dare I -- a mere mortal -- even presume to interfere with its existence by praying and wishing for something...? Because to a god, my mortal existence -- never mind my own day-to-day problems -- are as puny and insignificant as that of an ant.

My final "Sorry" is thus easily explained: I'm apologising if my post offends you or confuses you. That's all.

 

[Louanne Learning]

Are you going to be writing a time themed story next?

I think I may be afraid to, which means that is all the reason I should!

 

[Naomasa298]

- Time, as a concept, only exists because humanity says it exists. As we've established, celestial bodies, florae and faunae don't care about time.

No, it isn't, any more than an orbit is. With or without humanity, planets will continue to orbit, whether there is anyone here to call it that or not.

This is getting out of the realm of science and into philosophy - there's a separate thread for that.

 

[Louanne Learning]

I like physicist John Archibald Wheeler’s (he coined the term black hole) answer when he was asked how he would define “time.”

After thinking for a while, he came up with this: “Time is Nature’s way of keeping everything from happening at once.”

 

[Louanne Learning]

we cannot see or control time, does it truly exist?

Since the entropy of the universe is increasing, this tells us time is passing

 

[Schism]

I think I may be afraid to, which means that is all the reason I should!

Yes. Exactly!

 

[Homer Potvin]

This is getting out of the realm of science and into philosophy - there's a separate thread for that.

Neither has much to do with either.

 

[Naomasa298]

Neither has much to do with either.

That's sort of the reason why I mention it.

 

[Naomasa298]

Since the entropy of the universe is increasing, this tells us time is passing

Not just entropy. A universe could be completely empty of matter and energy and time would still pass, as long as there is space as we understand it.

 

[Louanne Learning]

empty of matter and energy and time would still pass, as long as there is space

Sounds like the inside of my brain after a few drinks

 

[Naomasa298]

Time, at a very basic level, is change. As long as something is changing, there is time.

 

[Louanne Learning]

Time, at a very basic level, is change. As long as something is changing, there is time.

that's basically the concept Sean Carroll puts forth in the first chapter of From Eternity to Here

 

[Louanne Learning]

Listen to the oldest known recording of a whale​

Researchers have rediscovered a 77-year-old recording of a haunting song that now has been determined to have come from a humpback whale.

On March 7, 1949, researchers at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) were stationed on a boat called the R/V Atlantis that was sailing off the coast of Bermuda. They lowered a primitive underwater recording setup into the ocean