Traditional Publishers and Weird Gatekeeping

[Madman Starryteller]

I did not want to hijack Set2Stun's thread, so I made a new one in response to @Naomasa298 's post who said this:

"I recently had one tell me that "animal abuse", in their preferences, includes eating meat."



Strange moral issue is my comment. I suppose they had no issues regarding humans hurting humans?

Edit, I want to be clearer here, there is no problem favouring vegetarian stories, but then your morality should also include no abuse against humans, in my opinion.

These kinds of specific issues trad publishers have makes me pissed, sometimes it feels like they make up the rules as they go. I'd rather avoid navigating traditional publishers and their shape-shifting moralities. Makes me prouder that I will try publishing on my own.

What are your stories of trad publishing's weird gatekeeping methods?

 

[Homer Potvin]

favouring vegetarian stories

That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard in a world replete with dumb shit. I got your meat to eat right here!

 

[Naomasa298]

I did not want to hijack Set2Stun's thread, so I made a new one in response to @Naomasa298 's post who said this:

"I recently had one tell me that "animal abuse", in their preferences, includes eating meat."

It's not a particular problem. All I need to do is change one food item that plays a role in the story and just not mention whatever else the other food contains.

And when they pay me, buy a burger with it.

 

[Set2Stun]

For this particular example, it's not too hard for me to understand. Think movies - what would you prefer - the death of a dog or cat, or the grisly deaths of two dozen humans? A lot of people don't want to see animal harm (especially pets), but human deaths don't matter too much, unless you've been led to have some emotional attachment to them in the narrative.

For the meat-eating specific thing, I've only seen that at maybe one or two places out of several hundred. Just hardcore vegan publications who are principled perhaps to a fault. I'm a vegetarian, but I'm not an adult baby, so I'm comfortable with the reality that most people consume dead animal pieces (aka meat), no matter how much I disagree with the practice.

The most common gatekeeping thing I've encountered in both agent/indie pub/magazine submissions is, "if you're a heterosexual white male, go fuck yourself." But they use language of inclusion rather than exclusion. It's funny to see the very long lists of the kinds of people they will accept queries from when they could save a bit of time by simply stating the one group they will not accept queries from. I wish I'd taken stats on this phenomenon to have numbers rather than to provide only anecdotal evidence. Might start doing that the next time I make my rounds with a new book (and stories).

 

[CatrionaGrace]

It would be an interesting project; I encourage you most sincerely to take it on and write up the results for one of the writers magazines, or at least for the forum.

I entered the workforce in 1973 in a field that was at the time 99.99% white, heterosexual,male-dominated. Wasn't trying to prove anything, just wanted to work where my strengths and interests lay. I was told repeatedly, to my face, "We are not going to hire you because you are female." And instead of simply "go fuck yourself" I ran into "come fuck me and I'll see what I can do about getting you that job." Harrassment? Stalking? Threats? Just another day in Paradise.

It's a discomforting but very valuable experience to have one's consciousness raised re: what it is like to be discriminated against. I don't approve of long lists of preferred clients, but they do serve as a clear warning re: the mindset of agents, publishers, and periodicals I would not work well with. Nils illegitimus non carborundum. Go somewhere else.

 

[Naomasa298]

For the meat-eating specific thing, I've only seen that at maybe one or two places out of several hundred. Just hardcore vegan publications who are principled perhaps to a fault. I'm a vegetarian, but I'm not an adult baby, so I'm comfortable with the reality that most people consume dead animal pieces (aka meat), no matter how much I disagree with the practice.

The weird thing is that particular publication *isn't* a hardcore vegan publication. They actually liked my story and have requested a rewrite.

 

[Naomasa298]

The most common gatekeeping thing I've encountered in both agent/indie pub/magazine submissions is, "if you're a heterosexual white male, go fuck yourself." But they use language of inclusion rather than exclusion. It's funny to see the very long lists of the kinds of people they will accept queries from when they could save a bit of time by simply stating the one group they will not accept queries from. I wish I'd taken stats on this phenomenon to have numbers rather than to provide only anecdotal evidence. Might start doing that the next time I make my rounds with a new book (and stories).

A thing I find really strange about that is that it doesn't matter what you're writing about. They just care *what* you are. They're not necessarily looking for stories written from your culture, perspective or lived experience. It's more like "we're here to prove that minorities can write".

Err... whoever said they couldn't? Someone tell that to Kazuo Ishiguro, author of Remains Of The Day, that got made into an Oscar-winning film.

 

[Naomasa298]

@Set2Stun mentioned Seize The Press in the rejection thread. These guys want subversive, anti-capitalist fiction. I haven't submitted to them, and I can't ever see myself doing so - at this point, that editorial line feels performative. I don't write to "get a message across", and sure as heck not as a call to arms.

Aww, heck, Maybe I should just throw some aliens and an evil megacorp in my next one.

 

[Madman Starryteller]

For this particular example, it's not too hard for me to understand. Think movies - what would you prefer - the death of a dog or cat, or the grisly deaths of two dozen humans? A lot of people don't want to see animal harm (especially pets), but human deaths don't matter too much, unless you've been led to have some emotional attachment to them in the narrative.

This makes a lot of sense. Sadly we are more accustomed to the idea that humans deserve their suffering.

A thing I find really strange about that is that it doesn't matter what you're writing about. They just care *what* you are. They're not necessarily looking for stories written from your culture, perspective or lived experience. It's more like "we're here to prove that minorities can write".

Err... whoever said they couldn't? Someone tell that to Kazuo Ishiguro, author of Remains Of The Day, that got made into an Oscar-winning film.

He also got a nobel prize in literature.
Edit: The Remains of the Day was a very good book. It actually helped me take the step I needed to write a love letter to a love interest back then who I had used to work with. I was rejected, but I do not regret it. Helped me find out if my love was real.

 

[Madman Starryteller]

It's more like "we're here to prove that minorities can write".

Err... whoever said they couldn't?

I think this is because of historical discrimination. I think it used to be the other way around, that women and minorities were discriminated against by publishing houses. So now the wheel turns and a new group is instead discriminated as a sort of extreme counter-reaction.

But we are supposed to evolve as a society are we not? Not just find new groups to hate on. This brings me back around to why I don't want to trad publish, because of their sketchy and shifting moralities.

 

[JT Woody]

Must have an active social media account with over 1k followers.
I looked atbtheir client list.... 1 of them has never published anything before (no journals, magazines, article, nothing) , but this is her first novel and she have like 25k followers.
The other 4 have no books published but "are working on their debut novel". So really, they got signed NOT because of their manuscript, but because of their large social media following.

 

[Catrin Lewis]

That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard in a world replete with dumb shit. I got your meat to eat right here!

Likely out of my budget, but hear, hear!