Violence in the workshop

[Madman Starryteller]

I was just wondering about new internet laws being passed and how they may affect the future of the workshop? And our artistic freedoms of expression?

The UK's Online Safety Act for example is meant to protect children from harmful things. But what has been deemed as harmful? This is where my confusion begins. Is text-based fictional violence considered harmful? Are certain themes harmful, such as suicide?

If the site needs to age verify certain areas of the workshop, can't a kid just lie and set a higher age than they are? I know I did.

I'd rather not this turned into a discussion mainly about the law, but about how the site might handle a more strict and regulated internet future. (Because I think the EU and other places might take on similar laws.)


One solution I see, is that we rewrite violent scenes before posting in the workshop. If that becomes a legal requirement.

For now I guess the site isn't in any trouble.

 

[Rigor Mortis]

This thread title seems to promise a lot more...

 

[Naomasa298]

Rock music, moral decay!
Dungeons & Dragons, Satan worship!
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, ninja weapons!
Video games, normalising violence!
Teletubbies, alien infiltration!

OK, maybe not that last one. It's the latest moral panic that's in fashion. Won't anyone think of the children! But I wouldn't worry, most children these days can't read and write anyway.

 

[Madman Starryteller]

Rock music, moral decay!
Dungeons & Dragons, Satan worship!
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, ninja weapons!
Video games, normalising violence!
Teletubbies, alien infiltration!

OK, maybe not that last one. It's the latest moral panic that's in fashion. Won't anyone think of the children! But I wouldn't worry, most children these days can't read and write anyway.

I gave the laugh emoji, but I cried.

 

[Homer Potvin]

It's still writing. To the best of my knowledge, there is no age verification required on the Internet or in person. At @JT Woody can correct me, but I don't believe anybody in a library needs to show an ID to check out Stephen King of Cormac McCarthy. It's not like books are rated R or NC-17?

As far as shielding children from the evils of the world, good luck with that. It ain't my job. In fact, I feel a moral responsibility to do anything I can help the kids adjust to reality as quickly as possible. I don't have any myself, so I'll have to act vicariously. My message to the kiddies is go sit in the corner with your woobie until you're ready for life. Try not to die before you get there.

One solution I see, is that we rewrite violent scenes before posting in the workshop. If that becomes a legal requirement.

That's a solution looking or a problem that doesn't exist yet. I can't see how it would become a legal requirement. Even if a law were to be passed in the UK, I don't think it would apply. Xenforo software, which runs the forum, is a UK company but the site is technically hosted on a US server in New Jersey. And the owner, me, is also American. I have no idea how all that breaks down legally, but I doubt the nationality of the company that creates the software is the determining factor.

For now, simple disclaimers and trigger warnings (if the author feels that's necessary) are more than sufficient. If something changes, we'll adapt, but that's an over-my-dead-body scenario. Either way, the liability is mine and I have the forum wired behind an LLC, so there's nothing for anybody to worry about.

Having said all that, don't post anything illegal or unnecessarily gratuitous.

 

[Naomasa298]

I'd worry about it only if Waterstones starts bringing in mandatory ID checks.

 

[JT Woody]

I was just wondering about new internet laws being passed and how they may affect the future of the workshop? And our artistic freedoms of expression?

The UK's Online Safety Act for example is meant to protect children from harmful things. But what has been deemed as harmful? This is where my confusion begins. Is text-based fictional violence considered harmful? Are certain themes harmful, such as suicide?

If the site needs to age verify certain areas of the workshop, can't a kid just lie and set a higher age than they are? I know I did.

I'd rather not this turned into a discussion mainly about the law, but about how the site might handle a more strict and regulated internet future. (Because I think the EU and other places might take on similar laws.)


One solution I see, is that we rewrite violent scenes before posting in the workshop. If that becomes a legal requirement.

For now I guess the site isn't in any trouble.

Your concerns are why there are a lot of "book banning" (challenges) in libraries, tbh. What 1 person deems inoffensive, a bandwagon of other find it very offensive. For example, Where's Waldo (1987) was banned in some schools and challenged in some libraries because of nudity.
in 2020, the book, The Hate U Give was on the top 10 most challenged book list for "promotion of anti police message" and then was on the list again in 2021 for "violence"

Spoiler: (If you are unfamiliar with the book)

(if you are not familiar with the book and movie, it is about a black girl from a not so great neighborhood who goes to a predominantly white prep school in another neighborhood. One of her friends from back home is mistaken for someone else by the police and shot. her prepschool and the outside community paint him as a thug, while her community fights for justice. And she makes a choice to stand by her friend's memory and her community risking her new friendships and status at her white prepschool)

The funniest was one of the reasons why Harry Potter was challenged: "for characters that use “nefarious means” to attain goals."

ALSO... once we had a teen (17yo) check out all of the 50 Shades books. There is an age restriction for those under 17 checking out "adult content" where it needs to be checked out on a parent's card (at my old library system). Parent came back furious and blamed us for their kid reading the books. We have a teen section with teen books. but we cannot MAKE a teen stay in a room. even if the teen hadnt have checked it out, they could have just walked to the adult section and read it. Does that mean we need to remove all of the adult books because an unsupervised teen and/or child might get their hands on something a parent doesnt want them to have?

My point is, dont let the idea of censorship make you censor yourself in order to minimize backlash.

but I don't believe anybody in a library needs to show an ID to check out Stephen King of Cormac McCarthy. It's not like books are rated R or NC-17?

in my previous library system, any item listed as "adult" regardless of rating, would not be able to be checked out by a minor.
Once, a kid wanted to check out a Marvel movie (PG-13). But because it was in the Adult section of DVDs, he couldnt. His parent had to use their card to check it out. Same with books. If it didnt have a "Teen/Childrens" sticker, it could not be checked out without an Adult librarycard. and Teens phase out of "childrens" library cards when they turn 17.

 

[JT Woody]

how the site might handle a more strict and regulated internet future.

IDK about UK schools... but many (if not all) schools in the US have filters on the kind of websites kids can access at school and on their school issued devices. Anything with "harmful content" is flagged and inaccessible.
(as a kid, that sucked, lol! because I could never get on DeviantART in our computer lab!)

If a kid at school somehow find themselves in the NSFW channel on here (as an example), the fault would fall on the school, (in my opinion).
If a kid somehow finds themselves in that channel in a library or on their phones, its the parent's fault. not the library or this website.
WATCH YOUR DANG KIDS!

 

[Madman Starryteller]

Either way, the liability is mine and I have the forum wired behind an LLC, so there's nothing for anybody to worry about.

So you get to fall on the sword and take all the glory, huh? No honour left for the rest of us!

Thank you, Homer, for the clarifications.

My point is, dont let the idea of censorship make you censor yourself in order to minimize backlash.

This was my concern. That we would be forced to censor ourselves. Yeah, we should just write the story, then let the world worry about it.

 

[Homer Potvin]

Your concerns are why there are a lot of "book banning" (challenges) in libraries, tbh. What 1 person deems inoffensive, a bandwagon of other find it very offensive. For example, Where's Waldo (1987) was banned in some schools and challenged in some libraries because of nudity.
in 2020, the book, The Hate U Give was on the top 10 most challenged book list for "promotion of anti police message" and then was on the list again in 2021 for "violence"

Spoiler: (If you are unfamiliar with the book)

(if you are not familiar with the book and movie, it is about a black girl from a not so great neighborhood who goes to a predominantly white prep school in another neighborhood. One of her friends from back home is mistaken for someone else by the police and shot. her prepschool and the outside community paint him as a thug, while her community fights for justice. And she makes a choice to stand by her friend's memory and her community risking her new friendships and status at her white prepschool)

The funniest was one of the reasons why Harry Potter was challenged: "for characters that use “nefarious means” to attain goals."

ALSO... once we had a teen (17yo) check out all of the 50 Shades books. There is an age restriction for those under 17 checking out "adult content" where it needs to be checked out on a parent's card (at my old library system). Parent came back furious and blamed us for their kid reading the books. We have a teen section with teen books. but we cannot MAKE a teen stay in a room. even if the teen hadnt have checked it out, they could have just walked to the adult section and read it. Does that mean we need to remove all of the adult books because an unsupervised teen and/or child might get their hands on something a parent doesnt want them to have?

My point is, dont let the idea of censorship make you censor yourself in order to minimize backlash.



in my previous library system, any item listed as "adult" regardless of rating, would not be able to be checked out by a minor.
Once, a kid wanted to check out a Marvel movie (PG-13). But because it was in the Adult section of DVDs, he couldnt. His parent had to use their card to check it out. Same with books. If it didnt have a "Teen/Childrens" sticker, it could not be checked out without an Adult librarycard. and Teens phase out of "childrens" library cards when they turn 17.

Very interesting. Thank you. Can't say I'm shocked. So by what criteria does something get earn an age restriction? I can't imagine there's an agency reviewing everything that gets written, similar to the Motion Picture Association of America. Does somebody have to raise a stink to get a book on the radar? I can see 50 Shades earning due to it's ubiquity, but what about the rest of them?

And haven't these ignorant fucks figured out that telling kids not to do something is the best way to get them to overindulge. Never mind... rhetorical question.

 

[Nomad416]

This thread title seems to promise a lot more...

IKR? I was gonna ask if it was all right with the staff here if I went to your house and gave you a good slap and stomp on the foot, but it seems I can't. Darn.

Jokes aside, yeah, this is troubling. It feels like both sides of the aisle, no matter where you are, support the formation of a police state based on their ideals. I remember seeing a news clip on YouTube where a UK police officer claimed that they were going to arrest anyone, even non-UK citizens of other nations, who broke their Internet etiquette laws. I mean, I believe it's all bravado because while I can't speak for others, I'm pretty sure US extradition policies don't allow them to waltz in, grab you, and shove you onto a plane to London. At least according to a LEO I asked, in most cases, you have to have committed a crime in the US in addition to the UK to be extradited. I seriously doubt the US will hand any of its citizens over just for being mean online. But that doesn't mean it's not a scary proposition. We're heading closer and closer to 1984.

 

[JT Woody]

So by what criteria does something get earn an age restriction? I can't imagine there's an agency reviewing everything that gets written, similar to the Motion Picture Association of America.

by selector discretion.
Youth services selects and orders youth services items. Adult services selects and order adult items. Whatever collection code it comes in as (for example, if I made an "Adult Fiction" list, those items would arrive under "Adult Fiction"), is how that item will be catalogued and placed.
Sometimes there was overlap. like,.... now Lore Olympus is in both Teen and Adult. same with Saga (Saga has very explicit gore and nudity.. I showed a teen librarian a page in Saga that had legs spread eagle, vag and boobs, and she immediately moved it to adult). But we cant read everything. Only reason I knew about Saga and Lore Olympus is because I own/have read the graphic novel series.
And... if someone complains about the books, it goes through a review process. the review process differs from library to library.
I need to freshen up on it for THIS library since....

Spoiler

I've been offered the role of Branch Manager

 

[Homer Potvin]

by selector discretion.
Youth services selects and orders youth services items. Adult services selects and order adult items. Whatever collection code it comes in as (for example, if I made an "Adult Fiction" list, those items would arrive under "Adult Fiction"), is how that item will be catalogued and placed.
Sometimes there was overlap. like,.... now Lore Olympus is in both Teen and Adult. same with Saga (Saga has very explicit gore and nudity.. I showed a teen librarian a page in Saga that had legs spread eagle, vag and boobs, and she immediately moved it to adult). But we cant read everything. Only reason I knew about Saga and Lore Olympus is because I own/have read the graphic novel series.
And... if someone complains about the books, it goes through a review process. the review process differs from library to library.
I need to freshen up on it for THIS library since....

Spoiler

I've been offered the role of Branch Manager

Congrats. If I can offer some advice, which you might be aware of already, the higher you climb the managerial manager, the less and less the job has to do with the actual thing you're supposed to manage. What I do now has almost nothing to do with restaurants anymore. It’s all about supervising over operating, and then actuating over supervising. I good be running a fleet of shoe stores or buttplug factories and the job wouldn't change much.

Back on topic, so it's the libraries who vet their own selections? That's interesting. I bet there's a wide spectrum in all that between a rural middle American library and urban outlets surrounded by universities.

 

[Rigor Mortis]

Banning books and other media clearly works and that's why those in authority keep doing it. Not so much in books but we had a fairly active movie censor (that was his title, I think) ever since movies became a thing. Notable entries:
The Life of Brian, banned for many years and that's why no-one in Ireland has ever heard of it.
The Exorcist, banned resolutely, which is why most of my childhood friends had seen it before becoming teenagers.
There were protests when Playboy of the Western World made its debut in the theatre in 1907 and protests when The Last Temptation of Christ was shown in movie theatres. I recall watching an Irish TV production when I was about 10 when a woman's naked breasts sent the country into turmoil. Platoon was released at a time when I still ventured into church to hear a sermon decrying the extent of foul language in that movie, with the exact quantity innumerated for anyone who'd seen it and forgot to count.

There's a lot of things worthy of concern to be found throughout this world wide web, and that's even before entering the depravities of the dark side. There's disinformation and falsehoods both subtle and not so much, with advent of AI massively upping the ante. Parents operate on the assumption their kids have exposure to all that stuff and try to counter it as much as possible. The rise of intolerance suggests that not all of them are trying all that hard. Or share the opinions. The fact is that all that stuff is out there and we must endeavour to ensure the hate doesn't gain traction. Roughly translated, we're in trouble but not because of what's generally to be found in books and stories.

 

[big soft moose]

Since Xen Foro are a uk company it is possible that they might start age verification down the line ( mostly it’s either ID or face recognition based) but at the moment the UK OSA is more focused on stuff like porn sites. If they did roll it out it would be for them to set up and administer, not us.

That aside our general rule of thumb on violence in the workshop is that fight scenes are fine but torture porn is not. If it’s the sort of thing you’d see in an 18 rated thriller it’s okay, if it’s the sort of thing you’d only see in an imported and illegal under counter film then not so much

The reason we have those rules is not about shielding kids from the real world but about not getting kicked off the host or dungeoned by search engines

 

[Madman Starryteller]

Since Xen Foro are a uk company it is possible that they might start age verification down the line ( mostly it’s either ID or face recognition based) but at the moment the UK OSA is more focused on stuff like porn sites. If they did roll it out it would be for them to set up and administer, not us.

That's good news. Then the site and team wouldn't need to set up their own tech.

 

[JT Woody]

Back on topic, so it's the libraries who vet their own selections? That's interesting. I bet there's a wide spectrum in all that between a rural middle American library and urban outlets surrounded by universities.

yep. different communities, different rules.
for schools (at least Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, North Carolina, and South Carolina as of 2024.), they are required to screen every book and create a detailed list of each book and WHY it should be in schools and submit it to the school district for approval. the school board has the final say over what is allowed in school libraries.
When this policy came about, many school librarians quit because they had to box up and essentially do book reports for the hundreds of books in their collection, and then wait for whenever the board gets around to reviewing all of the lists in the district.
And many school libraries ended up letting go of their librarians.

 

[Homer Potvin]

That's good news. Then the site and team wouldn't need to set up their own tech.

Exactly. Xenforo would protect their own liability by hardwiring their software for age verification. I've never seen that anywhere before but anything is possible. I'm not worried about it. I have something stuck in my teeth that is more worrisome to me than all the children's futures--vis a vis naughty written things--in the universe combined.

 

[big soft moose]

Exactly. Xenforo would protect their own liability by hardwiring their software for age verification. I've never seen that anywhere before but anything is possible. I'm not worried about it. I have something stuck in my teeth that is more worrisome to me than all the children's futures--vis a vis naughty written things--in the universe combined.

Porn hub ( and other similar services)have had to do it in the Uk

Because internet territorialisation is a thing they roll it out just for UK ISPs ( people then use VPNs to avoid it, they block VPNs so people spoof and so on.). Like most legal things it’s about demonstrating they’ve taken reasonable steps not erecting a totally impermeable barrier

 

[Homer Potvin]

Porn hub ( and other similar services)have had to do it in the Uk

Because internet territorialisation is a thing they roll it out just for UK ISPs ( people then use VPNs to avoid it, they block VPNs so people spoof and so on.). Like most legal things it’s about demonstrating they’ve taken reasonable steps not erecting a totally impermeable barrier

I heard about that. Hasn't made it to the US yet. We'll see.