Violence in the workshop

[big soft moose]

Exactly. Xenforo would protect their own liability by hardwiring their software for age verification. I've never seen that anywhere before but anything is possible. I'm not worried about it. I have something stuck in my teeth that is more worrisome to me than all the children's futures--vis a vis naughty written things--in the universe combined.

The likely model is a third part age verification service where you upload either a face shot and they use an algorithm to decide if it’s the face of an 18 year old. Then Xen foro or whoever say in order to start an account on our server ( from a uk ISP) you must verify your age using a link to this service .

It’s a long way off because the govt doesn’t care about forums ( excepting things like pro suucide fora which are a breach of Xen foro terms anyway)

 

[Rigor Mortis]

The likely model is a third part age verification service where you upload either a face shot and they use an algorithm to decide if it’s the face of an 18 year old. Then Xen foro or whoever say in order to start an account on our server ( from a uk ISP) you must verify your age using a link to this service .

It’s a long way off because the govt doesn’t care about forums ( excepting things like pro suucide fora which are a breach of Xen foro terms anyway)

Oh I hope existing members are exempt if it extends beyond the UK. No more regenerative creams for this sorry puss. What if the algorithm mistakes me for a minor? With an o and not an e.

 

[big soft moose]

I can imagine it extending beyond uk ISPs unless other countries pass similar legislation

What has become apparent is that the days of a totally unregulated internet are over, people can say but the internet isn’t at xyz location, but the servers and companies are at physical places and those governments are going to legislate

 

[Homer Potvin]

Oh I hope existing members are exempt if it extends beyond the UK. No more regenerative creams for this sorry puss. What if the algorithm mistakes me for a minor? With an o and not an e.

It'll probably be part of their privacy policy that will auto-ask you to verify before you can log in. They have that wired already on their end, when applicable. I can do the same thing as well if I were to update the Forum's own policy and force everyone to re-agree.

 

[Luxuria]

Well, I have many thoughts and feelings about this topic as a writer and an American, which I will spare everyone.

But I am curious about this:

That aside our general rule of thumb on violence in the workshop is that fight scenes are fine but torture porn is not. If it’s the sort of thing you’d see in an 18 rated thriller it’s okay, if it’s the sort of thing you’d only see in an imported and illegal under counter film then not so much

Because US movies are on average, seem to be MORE violent than UK movies. From my research, the UK banned Texas Chainsaw Massacare and that was an R-rated film here. So, I am at a loss of what exactly the line is, because the UK and US 18+ Movie is most likely very different. In the US, we don't care as much about gore, but show a boob and all hell breaks loose. The UK film ratings also focus on 'repeatable' violence that kids could 'reenact', which is NOT at ALL a concern here in the US.

What the UK might consider a 'torture porn scene', might just be basic torture questioning in a US film. So, I would like some more details on where exactly the line is.

 

[Rigor Mortis]

What has become apparent is that the days of a totally unregulated internet are over

It'll probably be part of their privacy policy that will auto-ask you to verify before you can log in.

No harm is my first reaction. Anonymity and lack of accountability do not create a healthy environment. While we're using various identifiers here, I imagine it's fairly traceable and, even if not, the forum is well moderated to prevent trolling and egregious misbehaviour.

 

[big soft moose]

Moderators will use their common sense on a day by day basis, it’s very rarely an issue. On the OG forum i can only think of two pieces that were deleted for gratuitous violence ( oops that was a reply to lux)

When it was an issue it was down to sketchy people writing down their hurtcore fantasies for gratification not down to members going to far.

By and large if you are a normal citizen you aren’t going to cross the torture porn line any more than you’re going to write paedophillia, necrophillia or bestiality

 

[Homer Potvin]

. On the OG forum i can only think of two pieces that were deleted for gratuitous violence

Compared to a few dozen for idiocy.

 

[Homer Potvin]

What the UK might consider a 'torture porn scene', might just be basic torture questioning in a US film. So, I would like some more details on where exactly the line is.

You'd have to call the UK about that one.

 

[big soft moose]

You'd have to call the UK about that one.

I mean I’m in the uk and my definition ( which is really the only one that matters aside from yours) is pretty much the same as the American version, ie sickeningly gratuitous violence where the depiction adds nothing to the plot and/ or is generally unacceptable to normal people, it harder to define than it is to recognise.

By and large it’s nothing that any of our genuine members are going to write, the people who do are in need of treatment

 

[Naomasa298]

Because US movies are on average, seem to be MORE violent than UK movies. From my research, the UK banned Texas Chainsaw Massacare and that was an R-rated film here.

That was 50 years ago, in 1975. Standards were different. The 2022 movie is not banned, although it has an 18 rating, which is a bit stricter than the US's R rating.

 

[Catrin Lewis]

Back on topic, so it's the libraries who vet their own selections? That's interesting. I bet there's a wide spectrum in all that between a rural middle American library and urban outlets surrounded by universities.

And that's how it should be, imho.

 

[Rath Darkblade]

Your concerns are why there are a lot of "book banning" (challenges) in libraries, tbh. What 1 person deems inoffensive, a bandwagon of other find it very offensive. For example, Where's Waldo (1987) was banned in some schools and challenged in some libraries because of nudity.

Oh noes! Where's Waldo is telling kids that boobs exist! Oh, the humanity ... *faints melodramatically onto a conveniently-placed chaise longue*

Seriously, what is it with people banning books for depicting nudity? That example was hardly gratuitous. It's not as if kids don't see it in topless beaches anyway.

in 2020, the book, The Hate U Give was on the top 10 most challenged book list for "promotion of anti police message" and then was on the list again in 2021 for "violence"

Spoiler: (If you are unfamiliar with the book)

(if you are not familiar with the book and movie, it is about a black girl from a not so great neighborhood who goes to a predominantly white prep school in another neighborhood. One of her friends from back home is mistaken for someone else by the police and shot. her prepschool and the outside community paint him as a thug, while her community fights for justice. And she makes a choice to stand by her friend's memory and her community risking her new friendships and status at her white prepschool)

"Promotion of anti-police message"? Oh, FFS. Since when is it suddenly a "bad thing" to show that cops make mistakes? :-\

The police are as human as the rest of us, and prone to the same biases and other human traits: racism, sexism, antisemitism and more. Is some censor somewhere putting cops on a pedestal, like gods, and saying they can't be challenged?

The funniest was one of the reasons why Harry Potter was challenged: "for characters that use “nefarious means” to attain goals."

Huh. I wonder who said that. "Gee, mommy, that character just used nefarious means to attain his goals!"
"Yes, Timmy, and that's why he's the villain."

Who even thinks like that? "Golly gosh, we can't let kids think that there are bad people in the world!" Go away? Please? Your naivete is scaring me.

ALSO... once we had a teen (17yo) check out all of the 50 Shades books. There is an age restriction for those under 17 checking out "adult content" where it needs to be checked out on a parent's card (at my old library system). Parent came back furious and blamed us for their kid reading the books. We have a teen section with teen books. but we cannot MAKE a teen stay in a room. even if the teen hadn't have checked it out, they could have just walked to the adult section and read it. Does that mean we need to remove all of the adult books because an unsupervised teen and/or child might get their hands on something a parent doesn't want them to have?

If a kid at school somehow find themselves in the NSFW channel on here (as an example), the fault would fall on the school, (in my opinion).
If a kid somehow finds themselves in that channel in a library or on their phones, its the parent's fault. not the library or this website.
WATCH YOUR DANG KIDS!

YES YES YES! Absolutely. It's about time parents stopped using libraries (and other places) as babysitters.

You're a parent? Great. PARENT YOUR SPROG!

Sorry, I was taking the world seriously again.

 

[ps102]

What has become apparent is that the days of a totally unregulated internet are over, people can say but the internet isn’t at xyz location, but the servers and companies are at physical places and those governments are going to legislate

It's really hard to completely regulate the Internet because of its architecture. Governments really can regulate any legal websites within their jurisdiction as much as they want. But beyond that (i.e. dark web sites), they have little to no control. That's where illegal and harmful activity is rampant. Not some forums about people's favourite hobbies/activities. I hope the UK government realizes this.

As for whether XenForo can ID people outside of the UK if it becomes a requirement, I kinda doubt that will happen because verification will be far more complicated. How would they verify my Greek ID? The Greek government provides nothing for outsiders to verify the authenticity of an identity card, so there is no way for XenForo to tell whether what I submitted is real or not.

 

[Rath Darkblade]

It's really hard to completely regulate the Internet because of its architecture. Governments really can regulate any legal websites within their jurisdiction as much as they want. But beyond that (i.e. dark web sites), they have little to no control. That's where illegal and harmful activity is rampant. Not some forums about people's favourite hobbies/activities. I hope the UK government realizes this.

I would make an argument that regulating the internet -- but completely -- is something that is utterly unnecessary.

How do you define "regulate"? With laws, made by governments? Yes? Then what's to stop the other party from repealing or changing your laws?

What parts of "the internet" will you regulate? The so-called "Dark Web" seems immune to regulation of any kind, some social media (e.g. the sewers formerly known as Facebook and Twitter) are resistant to regulation, while forums such as these are already governed by the Almighty Moderators. (All hail our benign overlords!) *bows down to the moderators and offers nectar and ambrosia*

As for whether XenForo can ID people outside of the UK if it becomes a requirement, I kinda doubt that will happen because verification will be far more complicated. How would they verify my Greek ID? The Greek government provides nothing for outsiders to verify the authenticity of an identity card, so there is no way for XenForo to tell whether what I submitted is real or not.

Agreed. As an upside-down Downunder-er, how does the UK goober-mint intend to regulate my activities? I'm seriously curious: what I type on this forum, for instance, comes from an Australian computer, passed over by an Australian ISP, and eventually reaches XenForo's servers. If -- rhetorically speaking -- I said or encouraged something criminal or actionable (which I obviously won't do, because that would be utterly dumb), I could, might, or would be prosecuted under Australian law, not UK law.

Even age verification won't work. YouTube will probably find that out, if they hadn't already. Theoretically, kids aged 4 to 12 can only see YouTube Kids, with everything else being banned or held behind mummy's password. But kids are sneaky and devious (anyone who has kids will probably bear me out on this), so they can guess mummy's password (or ask dad for his, because dad wants to look "cool").

Also, the more you try to stop kids from doing or seeing something, the more they'll want to try. (Not just kids, but everyone). Why? Because that's human nature.

 

[big soft moose]

As for whether XenForo can ID people outside of the UK if it becomes a requirement, I kinda doubt that will happen because verification will be far more complicated. How would they verify my Greek ID? The Greek government provides nothing for outsiders to verify the authenticity of an identity card, so there is no way for XenForo to tell whether what I submitted is real or not.

they're not going to unless the greek government pases a similar online safety act, because they have no reason to... that aside most age verificastion appears to be done by asking people to post a face shot and an algo then verifies whether they look 18... that's problematic for those with baby faces, and also doesnt stop kids from using a photo of someone else... however its about the sevice provider demonstrating they took reasonable steps rather than an absolute barrier

 

[big soft moose]

Agreed. As an upside-down Downunder-er, how does the UK goober-mint intend to regulate my activities? I'm seriously curious: what I type on this forum, for instance, comes from an Australian computer, passed over by an Australian ISP, and eventually reaches XenForo's servers. If -- rhetorically speaking -- I said or encouraged something criminal or actionable (which I obviously won't do, because that would be utterly dumb), I could, might, or would be prosecuted under Australian law, not UK law.

it won't because its a uk law and they don't care about you, in order to comply with the UK OSA they only have to verify age for people conntecting from UK IPs / ISPs (and then only for acess to certain things like porn sites). If little jonny uses a VPN or whatever then the VPN then bears the liability if little jonny hurts himself

likewise if little jonny uploads a false ID then if something bad happens the provider can say 'well we asked for ID and it looked genuine'

Even age verification won't work. YouTube will probably find that out, if they hadn't already. Theoretically, kids aged 4 to 12 can only see YouTube Kids, with everything else being banned or held behind mummy's password. But kids are sneaky and devious (anyone who has kids will probably bear me out on this), so they can guess mummy's password (or ask dad for his, because dad wants to look "cool").

Also, the more you try to stop kids from doing or seeing something, the more they'll want to try. (Not just kids, but everyone). Why? Because that's human nature.

again its not about keeping the kids out its about limiting liability, if the kids use mommy's or Daddy's password and saomething bad results mommy and daddy are responsible because they didn't keep their passwords secure

the dark web is somethig of a red herring because those sites are already illegal and little jonny and janey probably don't have TOR the issue is much more with things like faceache and twatter hosting challenges to strangle yourself - it doesnt matter all that much if some dark web site has the same challenges because their traffic will be much lower

Its really unlikely to be an issue for us as the UK OSA is aimed at providers of potentially harmful material. Porn / Suicide / stupid challenges etc, not at sites about writing

 

[Naomasa298]

Honestly, I think people are worrying too much about this, at least for now. Short of someone posting kiddy porn or writing about it on the forum, I don't think there's that much to be concerned about. The kind of stuff we get here isn't anything more than what you'd find on a Waterstones shelf.

 

[big soft moose]

The kind of stuff we get here isn't anything more than what you'd find on a Waterstones shelf.

which circles back to what i said originally, if you write the sort of stuf you'll find on a waterstones shelf there is no problem with posting it in the workshop. If someone likes to write horribly graphic torture porn of the type you can only buy from under the counter or on the dark web then they should a) not post it here and b)seek treatment

 

[big soft moose]

I moved all the discussion of henges into the 'if you click on this thread you must post on it' thread inthe lounge...so you could say that this thread is unhenged

ETA: another post was just deleted that also has nothing to do with violence in the workshop. We don't have a debate room here, so if you want to talk about a media censorship, arrests etc and so forth in general, do it somewhere else... this here is a writing forum, wherein we discuss writing, and this specific section is workshop discussions wherein we discuss issues to do with the workshop