So, I have an upcoming story that heavily features a dog who used to be in dog fights and other nasty stuff before being adopted by a loving family. The major question I wanted to ask is whether there are dogs that can be okay around children but not adults in a context like that? I bring this up because I get the implication that's not normally how that goes, and because for the story in question, a part of it is them thinking Baron is a fairly friendly family dog before adopting him because of how friendly he is with their kid. That whole sequence may just be completely implausible, which is the other reason I was asking about this.
Former Fighting Dog Behavior
- Thread starter Killer300
- Start date
It's not impossible, though there are usually triggers. My first question would be what are we calling a fighting dog? There are levels, unfortunately. Also, what do you mean by not okay around adults?
For reference, in my previous working life (before I became disabled) I was a vet tech, dog trainer, and animal control officer. As a trainer my specialty was lost causes due to abuse/neglect and have known *many* fighting dogs.
Oh... good point. I would say in this case say that this is the kind of dog that was a direct fighter, not bait(not sure what that would be in that world). The main thing is the dog has experience directly fighting other animals, and has physical evidence of that from certain wounds on their body, along with whatever the expected, sadly, behavior is of a dog with that background.
For not okay around adults, I'm thinking of the standard behavior a dog that doesn't like strangers, and is reactive, to borrow a term I hear a lot in this context. The idea in story is that, for whatever reason, the dog is okay with a child say, touching their paws, but not okay with an adult doing that. I don't know how plausible that would be, which was the reason I started this thread.
Ah.
I understand what you're saying (and most bait animals don't survive, for reference), but what i mean by levels is.. well.. I honestly hate to even say it, but there are people who make dogs fight for food after starving them, and then there are the pros - the ones who literally torture dogs to make them fight and those are two extremely different things.
For instance I was responsible for the care of 4 fighting dogs who were taken in a highly publicized case. All 4 were females. All 4 were extremely scarred, starved, with active untreated wounds. The one that was the worst was pulled from the fight when authorities went in and she had layers of previously untreated wounds with bone deep infection, maggots, etc. She was winning the fight she was pulled from. She was also an absolute love bug with humans and would play fetch all day long (after she healed). Just don't let her see another animal.
If you want this to be realistic you're going to have to fill that back story for the dog and then see what makes sense for them.
That makes sense, sadly enough. Okay, I think this would on the "pro" end of the torture versus starvation spectrum you introduced, but I'll need to think carefully about how that shows up. In story I was imagining the dog was originally found tied to a post somewhere, and the fighting background is primarily in evidence from former wounds, not being part of a highly publicized case. I don't know if that changes anything here or...?
That poses another issue. The winners are kept very close, but the losers are rarely abandoned and instead are usually killed. There are occasions where someone steals one and then panics and dumps it and there are occasionally escapees, but they are much more rare. I had a blue nose pitbull I named Baby who was staggering down the center line of a busy back road (detour route at the time) covered in wounds and dripping blood. I stopped, opened the car door and said "Come on, baby, you're not safe out here." and he jumped right in. And then I prayed the whole way home this wasn't how I died
Got him home, cleaned him up, took him to work with me in the morning and had him fully checked out by the Vet I worked for. He had 76 puncture wounds from bites, was missing part of an ear, etc. He recovered quickly though, no complications. He loved almost everyone but there were some men he never would accept (he would sit between my feet and growl and if they got too close he'd lunge and he was not playing). I removed us from those situations immediately, assuming he knew something I did not. Only one woman he wouldn't accept and he acted the same with her. He loved all kids and was actually safe around most animals, though I was always very careful with him. I had him for 4 years before osteosarcoma took him from me.
Long way around to say - while just finding him somewhere isn't common, it absolutely can happen, it just needs to make sense how/why. The pole thing isn't something that happens with actual fighting dogs unless your character stumbled onto a farm, and then there will be way more than one and your character will be in immediate mortal danger the second one barks.
Most do not have "touch" triggers (paws, ears, face, top of head, etc.). People assume they do because they consider it a sign of abuse (it can be) but most fighting dogs are overly confident vs overly sensitive.
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Ah, I see. I do admit I'm extrapolating a lot from a grooming video, and that was how that animal was found in that case.That poses another issue. The winners are kept very close, but the losers are rarely abandoned and instead are usually killed. There are occasions where someone steals one and then panics and dumps it and there are occasionally escapees, but they are much more rare. I had a blue nose pitbull I named Baby who was staggering down the center line of a busy back road (detour route at the time) covered in wounds and dripping blood. I stopped, opened the car door and said "Come on, baby, you're not safe out here." and he jumped right in. And then I prayed the whole way home this wasn't how I died
Got him home, cleaned him up, took him to work with me in the morning and had him fully checked out by the Vet I worked for. He had 76 puncture wounds from bites, was missing part of an ear, etc. He recovered quickly though, no complications. He loved almost everyone but there were some men he never would accept (he would sit between my feet and growl and if they got too close he'd lunge and he was not playing). I removed us from those situations immediately, assuming he knew something I did not. Only one woman he wouldn't accept and he acted the same with her. He loved all kids and was actually safe around most animals, though I was always very careful with him. I had him for 4 years before osteosarcoma took him from me.
Long way around to say - while just finding him somewhere isn't common, it absolutely can happen.
If you can, what do you mean by overconfidence? Is that just being more aggressive with strangers, or...? That just sounds really odd to me because fighting dogs have been forced into violence against other dogs and horrifically mistreated in a bunch of other ways, which doesn't seem like something that would build confidence, to put things mildly.
Keep in mind, with no hate towards rescues or anything, that most dogs that are reported to be "fighting dogs" based on scars were actually horribly abused but not actual fighting dogs. Using them as representatives of how they act isn't going to be very accurate.
This takes more explanation and I have to get my laptop out. I'm going to get let my chickens out and I'll be back to answer.
Ah, okay, that's good to know, and was a major reason I started this thread.
Oh uh, don't let me impose on you! Please take your time.
No imposition, just avoiding angry birds lol.
No, in fact most fighting dogs are not aggressive to humans. Even ones they do not know. When they love a particular person they become protective of that person (like in my example of Baby) but they are not aggressive towards humans. In fact, it makes zero sense to raise a dog to do something for you that you can't handle. Modern media has made examples of these dogs that are unrealistic - small media (rescues, groomers, influencers, etc.) by showing them to be difficult to handle, extremely reactive with people, and/or extremely fearful. Movies/shows often show them to be the kind of dogs that when let out of their cages will attack and kill their handlers. All of this is entirely unrealistic.
When I say "overly confident" I do not in any way mean "aggressive". I mean they are fearless. They do not cower, they do not recoil, they do not shake. They are like parade horses who have been conditioned to noises, sudden actions, things bumping into them and touching them, and do not panic - ever. They are unflappable. They believe they can handle literally anything and it shows. They are, in fact, the easiest dogs to handle physically I've ever known (and again, I unfortunately have extensive experience handling them) as they do not resist or argue in any way and have extremely high tolerances for pain and discomfort. It's horrifying, but also makes sense when you think about it. I have treated many an extremely painful wound, wounds that I *know* still hurt like hell even with pain management on board, and had that dog wag their tail and lick my chin gently while I did it. Professionals in animal care who live in places where dog fighting is common do not hate getting fighting dogs in because we fear them in any way, we hate it because we know we're going to be balling our eyes out while we care for them and they are never going to leave our mind. They are instant core memories.
They are not *forced* in the way you think of as anyone being forced to do something in general terms. They are in fact fighters. The primary breed used for fighting and the one that everyone instantly thinks of, are derived from bull dogs which were used originally for bull baiting and bear baiting. When that fell out of favor the masses turned to dog fighting and ratting. That requires a level of tenacity bull dogs simply didn't have, so they added terrier. Terriers are the kind of dogs that have the tenacity to dive into holes in the earth and continue through that hole until they find their prey, exterminate them and the nest if they can, come out of the hole chasing escapees and follow until they get it. They don't quit, they don't give up. When dog fighting became a common pastime they took the bull dog terrier mixes and pit them against each other. That sounds terrifying, of course it does, except they were *always* bred to be excellent with humans. Always. The Staffordshire Terrier for instance was known as the 'nanny dog' because you didn't have to worry about your children if you had one. They would protect that child no matter what AND they would never hurt that child. People now claim it's a myth because it doesn't fit their narrative, but it wasn't a myth and for well-bred, appropriately raised and cared for Staffies it still isn't. They're just rare now.
Something you have to know about them is that they love humans so much, they will in fact do anything for their human. If a pup is taught young that when it acts aggressively towards another dog that makes the human happy and they are rewarded, they do it more. That's "wanted behavior" and they will then offer it more frequently. Not because they start out hating other dogs, they don't. If they're then let loose on that dog, they will follow through. They will do everything in their power to 'win'. Those handlers will build them up by making them run for hours a day, drag chains, etc. to increase endurance and ability. They make them do agility courses to keep them lithe. They starve them, not because it makes them 'hungrier for the fight' as people think, but because the reward for winning is dinner. It's usually not about physical abuse as much as it is psychological warfare, using a dog's inherent traits-- in this case their desire to please--against them. Not caring for their wounds and allowing them to fester isn't because they can't afford to care for them, it's because the dogs show no pain and along the way it became a point of pride in the dog "Look how much he can handle, he's a machine" and shit like that. The side "benefit" (makes me gag to write that) is that the dog's tolerance for pain increases even more.
The misconceptions about them were created by media. We were told that fighting dogs are dangerous to humans, they'll kill anyone they see, their prey drive is so high they attack children, etc. This was *not* true. It is true in some cases *now* because of people who know nothing about dogs and rewarded the dog when it growled at a stranger. When it growled at a child. Who started raising dogs for fighting based on what they read in the media and breeding without regard for temperament. When they started using them as status symbols so they could look tough and had no idea what they were doing. A dog that attacks a human or child is not actually a fighting dog. By virtue of what they are required to do they must be easily handled and not attack the crowd. They are extremely well trained for the same reason. They are friendly and gentle with humans. Any pro will always make sure that the thing the dog associates with pain was not them. It was the other dog, it was the cattle prod, it was the glass on the ground, etc. When human hands touch the dog, while they may appear rough, to the dog that is love, affection, reward.
They are not forced, they are rewarded, and they will do anything their human asks of them.
On the other side of that, the good news is that never goes away. When they bond with a new human (when given the opportunity) they will do what is wanted if the desires are clear. They will not fight if that is not wanted. They will guard if that is what is asked of them. They will curl up in bed and watch movies all day with you if that is what you want. While some will have lasting animal aggression, not all do. They do not 'get a taste for blood' as people would have you believe. They do not 'want' to kill. They want to please, and they will do whatever it takes to do so.
