Same... had someone tell me i should give my MMC more chemistry with a character who only ever interacts with him in the first chapter and turn her into a love interest so that the novel would have a love triangle.
How to give great critique
- Thread starter big soft moose
- Start date
I had one critiquer who wanted me to change the ending of a story to make a character succeed in what he was attempting, because he resonated with the character and wanted him to win.
in my case... it was someone whom i paid for editorial services. So I ignored that bit of feedback (though i wanted to explain that that character wasnt being introduced as his love interest, but introduced as a way for readers to see how cold and detached the MMC is around nobles, especially women as a STARTING POINT.... which evolves as he meets new people and his eventual love interest during the story)
Yes. That's basically what I was getting at.
The notion that if you respond or explain you're being defensive and disrespectful is the thing that drives me crazy. Also the "readers can't ask questions" thing. While it is true, it's also often used as a bullying tool, which I used to see often (though I have been out of the loop for a bit). I will always feel it rarely has a place in a workshop setting.
Yikes. How far into the book had they gotten when they dropped that little nugget of wisdom?
OK. That's not what I was saying though.
IMO, it *is* something that writers have to keep in mind. It's easy to have lots of information in your head that *you* know, but you forget that readers don't, so it doesn't hurt to remind someone of that, especially early in their writing career.
2 chapters in
(and the MMC is introduced in Chapter 2)
This is an interesting sub-thread you and Trish have going.
One of the clear distinguishers between genre and literary fiction is that genre fiction explains anything an "average reader" wouldn't know. That's an accepted and widely repeated rule of genre writing. (Or "writing," the way many genre groups try to universalize it.)
In contrast, literary fiction often assumes a certain level of cultural literacy, or other knowledge within a specialized area. It rarely spoonfeeds, as typical literary readers expect there to be a context they may or may not be fluent in, and they're perfectly willing to find knowledge on their own, for instance looking up terms the characters throw around, or allusions. Explaining something the characters know well so easily spoils the mood or tone. It easily becomes like someone explaining their own jokes. Certainly, people who understand the context are annoyed at any implication they wouldn't. As a literary author, you can get away with a little explanation, but it's easy to spoil the enjoyment of readers who do get the jokes, the allusions, whatever. And they're the target readership, not the man or woman on the street.
I get that now. That's how I read the initial post I responded to. I was trying to explain why I had the reaction I had.
Yes, like I said in my first post, they should be looking towards it, but not tripping over it 6 miles before the finish line. Or something like that. It's on the previous page and I'm on my phone and suck at maneuvering on mobile lol.
That's why in the literary piece I put into the Workshop, I didn't bother to explain what "amazake" was. I gave enough context for the reader to understand that it is a warm, sweet drink. For one thing, that's all that really mattered. If the reader was interested in that, or other cultural issues, such as the use of honorifics in Japanese, they'd look it up. Several people elsewhere commented on that particular omission.
I get frustrated with it because I've seen some people respond by explaining why XYZ as if it should already be clear to me, and then cutting off the discussion there and then.
I haven't read that piece yet (though I will), but offhand, that sounds like a great example.
Thanks! It's the one called "Ghosts".
Off topic, but one of my favorites that's been posted.
Ah. Well, that is a problem, and I agree that the answer then is "except I don't, and the reader may not either". Especially if you are the target audience.
When I was active before the phrase was usually thrown as a dismissal. A refusal to discuss. Very much a connotation of "I don't get it, the reader won't get it, you suck."
I feel I'm not very good at critique yet. I don't notice flaws as readily as some other people unless they're very basic ones (e.g. spelling and grammar issues), and the sad truth is that it's easier to say a lot in a critique when there's a lot wrong with a story to begin with. In other cases, previous posters in a critique thread may point out the issues better than I could have, so I'm left with less to contribute that is unique.
**WARNING: LONG, but hopefully worth it. A discussion of things NOT to do.** 
That's OK, Brandon. I specialize in SPaG (spelling, punctuation and grammar) too, and I throw Capitalization and formatting inconsistencies into the mix too. That's all part of proofreading. If you're good at that, you can be a proofreader.
I noticed a few things over the years that make a critique more valuable. For instance:
- Eliminate "crutch words". These include “and,” “well,” “but,” “so” and “you know” -- and also mere sounds like “ah,” “um” and “er.” Sometimes they include words such as “literally”, “actually” and “basically”. Whatever form they take, crutch words are typically overused and meaningless.
For example, what good do these crutch words do in the following paragraph?
"And well, so I called her up on the phone, you know? And she um, actually hung up on me! Well I said, hell no, so I hung up on HER! But she uh, she called me! So I literally hung up on her AGAIN, you know?"
The only time something like this is acceptable is if your character isn't fluent in English ... or a teenager. After all, they don't add any meaning to the paragraph.
- Limit your adverbs. This is a controversial piece of advice from Stephen King, no less; he advises to use no adverbs at all. But he's referring to instances like this:
"I hate you!" He said angrily.
"Yeah? Well I hate you!" I said ferociously.
"I'm leaving!" He thumped the door noisily.
Etc. Total drivel. ;P Adverbs do have their uses, but only use a few and don't use them all the time. Obviously.
How do you know when you've used too many? Do a word count, and then find how many adverbs you have. If it's more than (say) 1% -- i.e. 20 adverbs in a 2,000 word piece of writing -- it may be time to cut down.
- He said, she said. In older books, authors used to use synonyms of "said" (e.g. "shouted", "yelled", "whispered" etc.) instead of saying "He said X" or "She said Y", or "ABC XYZ!" he said.
This is totally unnecessary, and treats your readers like idiots. ;P If your character says "I hate you!" and your readers can't figure out that he's raising his voice -- shouting, yelling etc. -- then ... sigh.
You don't need to use the verb "said" at all, at least some of the time. You can eliminate it and use some other action. For instance:
"Oh, Marsha..." John fidgeted with his tie. "Do you truly love me?"
"Why, John! Of course I do!" Marsha twisted a blonde ringlet 'round her finger.
"Darling one!" John dropped to one knee, pulled out a small black box from his jacket pocket. "You don't know how happy you've made me!"
... Yes, yes -- it's schmaltzy as all hell, and not at all realistic. ;P Just mix your "said"s with actions, and you'll be fine.
- Last one, I promise: mobile body parts. This is a kind of weird one, but it's very logical. See if you can catch out other writers (and yourself!) using mobile body parts, like:
She threw back her head and laughed. (This raises a strange mental picture of a woman throwing away her head ...)
His feet ran away with him. (Sounds like a man's feet leaving his body behind and running away)
He stole my heart away. (Ack! Not only a cliche, but also a mental picture of primitive heart surgery!)
... and stuff like that. Anyway, I've lectured enough. What are some of your rules, hmm?
That's OK, Brandon. I specialize in SPaG (spelling, punctuation and grammar) too, and I throw Capitalization and formatting inconsistencies into the mix too. That's all part of proofreading. If you're good at that, you can be a proofreader.
I noticed a few things over the years that make a critique more valuable. For instance:
- Eliminate "crutch words". These include “and,” “well,” “but,” “so” and “you know” -- and also mere sounds like “ah,” “um” and “er.” Sometimes they include words such as “literally”, “actually” and “basically”. Whatever form they take, crutch words are typically overused and meaningless.
For example, what good do these crutch words do in the following paragraph?
"And well, so I called her up on the phone, you know? And she um, actually hung up on me! Well I said, hell no, so I hung up on HER! But she uh, she called me! So I literally hung up on her AGAIN, you know?"
The only time something like this is acceptable is if your character isn't fluent in English ... or a teenager. After all, they don't add any meaning to the paragraph.
- Limit your adverbs. This is a controversial piece of advice from Stephen King, no less; he advises to use no adverbs at all. But he's referring to instances like this:
"I hate you!" He said angrily.
"Yeah? Well I hate you!" I said ferociously.
"I'm leaving!" He thumped the door noisily.
Etc. Total drivel. ;P Adverbs do have their uses, but only use a few and don't use them all the time. Obviously.
How do you know when you've used too many? Do a word count, and then find how many adverbs you have. If it's more than (say) 1% -- i.e. 20 adverbs in a 2,000 word piece of writing -- it may be time to cut down.
- He said, she said. In older books, authors used to use synonyms of "said" (e.g. "shouted", "yelled", "whispered" etc.) instead of saying "He said X" or "She said Y", or "ABC XYZ!" he said.
This is totally unnecessary, and treats your readers like idiots. ;P If your character says "I hate you!" and your readers can't figure out that he's raising his voice -- shouting, yelling etc. -- then ... sigh.
You don't need to use the verb "said" at all, at least some of the time. You can eliminate it and use some other action. For instance:
"Oh, Marsha..." John fidgeted with his tie. "Do you truly love me?"
"Why, John! Of course I do!" Marsha twisted a blonde ringlet 'round her finger.
"Darling one!" John dropped to one knee, pulled out a small black box from his jacket pocket. "You don't know how happy you've made me!"
... Yes, yes -- it's schmaltzy as all hell, and not at all realistic. ;P Just mix your "said"s with actions, and you'll be fine.
- Last one, I promise: mobile body parts. This is a kind of weird one, but it's very logical.
See if you can catch out other writers (and yourself!) using mobile body parts, like:She threw back her head and laughed. (This raises a strange mental picture of a woman throwing away her head ...)
His feet ran away with him. (Sounds like a man's feet leaving his body behind and running away)
He stole my heart away. (Ack! Not only a cliche, but also a mental picture of primitive heart surgery!)
... and stuff like that.
Anyway, I've lectured enough. What are some of your rules, hmm?
**WARNING: LONG, but hopefully worth it. A discussion of things NOT to do.**
That's OK, Brandon. I specialize in SPaG (spelling, punctuation and grammar) too, and I throw Capitalization and formatting inconsistencies into the mix too. That's all part of proofreading. If you're good at that, you can be a proofreader.
I noticed a few things over the years that make a critique more valuable. For instance:
- Eliminate "crutch words". These include “and,” “well,” “but,” “so” and “you know” -- and also mere sounds like “ah,” “um” and “er.” Sometimes they include words such as “literally”, “actually” and “basically”. Whatever form they take, crutch words are typically overused and meaningless.
For example, what good do these crutch words do in the following paragraph?
"And well, so I called her up on the phone, you know? And she um, actually hung up on me! Well I said, hell no, so I hung up on HER! But she uh, she called me! So I literally hung up on her AGAIN, you know?"
The only time something like this is acceptable is if your character isn't fluent in English ... or a teenager. After all, they don't add any meaning to the paragraph.
- Limit your adverbs. This is a controversial piece of advice from Stephen King, no less; he advises to use no adverbs at all. But he's referring to instances like this:
"I hate you!" He said angrily.
"Yeah? Well I hate you!" I said ferociously.
"I'm leaving!" He thumped the door noisily.
Etc. Total drivel. ;P Adverbs do have their uses, but only use a few and don't use them all the time. Obviously.
How do you know when you've used too many? Do a word count, and then find how many adverbs you have. If it's more than (say) 1% -- i.e. 20 adverbs in a 2,000 word piece of writing -- it may be time to cut down.
- He said, she said. In older books, authors used to use synonyms of "said" (e.g. "shouted", "yelled", "whispered" etc.) instead of saying "He said X" or "She said Y", or "ABC XYZ!" he said.
This is totally unnecessary, and treats your readers like idiots. ;P If your character says "I hate you!" and your readers can't figure out that he's raising his voice -- shouting, yelling etc. -- then ... sigh.
You don't need to use the verb "said" at all, at least some of the time. You can eliminate it and use some other action. For instance:
"Oh, Marsha..." John fidgeted with his tie. "Do you truly love me?"
"Why, John! Of course I do!" Marsha twisted a blonde ringlet 'round her finger.
"Darling one!" John dropped to one knee, pulled out a small black box from his jacket pocket. "You don't know how happy you've made me!"
... Yes, yes -- it's schmaltzy as all hell, and not at all realistic. ;P Just mix your "said"s with actions, and you'll be fine.
- Last one, I promise: mobile body parts. This is a kind of weird one, but it's very logical.
She threw back her head and laughed. (This raises a strange mental picture of a woman throwing away her head ...)
His feet ran away with him. (Sounds like a man's feet leaving his body behind and running away)
He stole my heart away. (Ack! Not only a cliche, but also a mental picture of primitive heart surgery!)
... and stuff like that.
All of that is debatable IF the author is deliberately doing it, knowing what effect it has.
Filter words have the effect of creating uncertainty. This is important if that's what you're trying to convey.
Adverbs depend on your style. It's usually paired with "show, don't tell". I use them liberally when writing Vance, because the "show" is done through voice, NOT narrative. Very few readers notice the liberal use adverbs in it.
"Said" is fine. It's *supposed* to be invisible. Don't overuse it by putting it in every line of dialogue, but there's nothing wrong with using it simply as a reminder tag.
So, ensure you understand what the author is trying to achieve before automatically falling back on that advice. The advice itself isn't bullshit, but it's not always appropriate. Authors shouldn't sound like carbon copies, all adhering to a set of vanilla workshop guidelines.
Personally, I don't usually give out SPAG crits unless the issue is systematic. And even then, it may be a choice by the author. Cormac McCarthy doesn't use quotation marks, for example.
Of course, if the author wants SPAG corrections, then no problem.
A little note here for you, Brandon. Having someone read a story should be a gift to the author. There is no divine right that anyone has to read your story, but you do... and don't spot 'errors' as such, it is actually far more informative to the writer to get a reaction- good and bad.
I know I have stopped reading one of your chapters but that wasn't because the story was bad... but the delivery needed improving and to create a lengthy list of 'what I found wrong' is actually to the detriment to the writer. No reviewer should be here to point out faults in a story, but as writers, aim to help the author improve on their piece by being constructive yet supportive.
I have come across of stories in workshops whereby the writer simply wanted a reaction and when I make a reply, I do not look at what others have said because that will influence my reaction. If everyone were scathing to a piece but I really enjoyed it... then it isn't because they are right and I am wrong... this is after all a reaction.
The point I am trying to make is that everyone has a valued opinion and when giving any review or feedback we (as reviewers) should give careful consideration to the author, because in the end it is up to them to decide whether any points raised have validity.
Sure. I never claimed that my "rules" were universal or always applied (and they're not "my" rules, anyway. As I mentioned, the "adverb" thing is from Stephen King).
And yes, there's nothing wrong with "said". But if it's overdone, it can get tiresome. (It can also get tiresome if characters pull an action in every paragraph of dialogue).
But if you mix-and-match the "said" with actions (and sometimes you don't need either), then you should be fine. Right?
And yes, you're absolutely right about these not being ironclad "laws". Writing isn't mathematics!
