I loved it. You added so much to Alua and I liked the conversation between Dusca and Barnabas. I wonder if the groups will be forced to travel together for the time being. Cue the detours. Excuse me. Short cuts to cliff cross.
It Began in a Tavern (OOC Thread) (Part 2)
- Thread starter Luxuria
- Start date
I think they will and Nalki is instructed to lead the way. Of course he gets lost and that gives the women time to reach the location before everyone else.
You think the High Scientist and the High Mage and their guards will defer to the instructions of Nalki?
I am sure he can charm them with all his travel experience. Read:getting lost on vacation. The three just bonded over a warm meal and Hemios must have had a fun time talking to a man who never slept with a woman. So, got to brag all night and tell all his favorite stories for the 372th time.
I totally forgot to comment. I loved your post, @Louanne Learning ! The exchange between Dusca and Barnabas was deeply interesting.
So much promise is ahead. What happens next?
So much promise is ahead. What happens next?
I am working on it. I think I figured out a very humorous turn of events. Also, I forgot to mention Alua most likely tended to Ravenna's wounds and gave her herbs and stuff. So, she's most likely good to go. In pain, yes. But she's not going to get a fever or anything.
New post made! I know Dusca wants to get the Cliffcross, but I figured she would want to distract the bad guys as much as possible first.
Your turn @IgnitedxSoul!
Your turn @IgnitedxSoul!
Your reminder @IgnitedxSoul. 
It's your turn until Tuesday!
It's your turn until Tuesday!
I've been thinking about this story and I'm currently of the opinion that we need to raise the stakes even further.
This was already done when the three women's lives were put in danger because of the queen's orders. But I feel we need to raise them even higher. The women each need a motivation—a reason to keep going in their journey.
Right now, their lives are just in danger, but this isn't reason enough for them to act against the queen's regime. They could hide just like Alua at the end of the day.
So, they need a reason not to hide. They need a reason to keep going. Olive wants to discover her true identity. She won't stop until that happens. I've not portrayed this very well yet but it will happen in due course.
Right now, I don't really think that Ravenna and Katara have a motivation of their own. I think they're just following Olive because they were told to do so by Gamma. We probably need to do a bit better than that.
I personally see two ways to go about this. Either we build a strong relationship between them (and their motivation becomes to help Olive defeat the Queen), or we give them reasons of their own for helping Olive out.
The problem with the first option is how shallow it is. They don't have an agency of their own, so to speak, and it takes away some of their individuality. I think the second option is the best.
I had this thought that Barnabas captures Dusca and uses her to bait Katara (and therefore Olive, who is his real interest). But something tells me that this isn't really a very good idea. It's too much like the old damsel-in-distress trope. We probably want to do better than that as writers.
These are things that we really need to think about, or else the story is in danger of not making a lot of sense.
So, thoughts?
This was already done when the three women's lives were put in danger because of the queen's orders. But I feel we need to raise them even higher. The women each need a motivation—a reason to keep going in their journey.
Right now, their lives are just in danger, but this isn't reason enough for them to act against the queen's regime. They could hide just like Alua at the end of the day.
So, they need a reason not to hide. They need a reason to keep going. Olive wants to discover her true identity. She won't stop until that happens. I've not portrayed this very well yet but it will happen in due course.
Right now, I don't really think that Ravenna and Katara have a motivation of their own. I think they're just following Olive because they were told to do so by Gamma. We probably need to do a bit better than that.
I personally see two ways to go about this. Either we build a strong relationship between them (and their motivation becomes to help Olive defeat the Queen), or we give them reasons of their own for helping Olive out.
The problem with the first option is how shallow it is. They don't have an agency of their own, so to speak, and it takes away some of their individuality. I think the second option is the best.
I had this thought that Barnabas captures Dusca and uses her to bait Katara (and therefore Olive, who is his real interest). But something tells me that this isn't really a very good idea. It's too much like the old damsel-in-distress trope. We probably want to do better than that as writers.
These are things that we really need to think about, or else the story is in danger of not making a lot of sense.
So, thoughts?
I've also been thinking about length... Realistically, there is a lot left to write. None of the characters have been developed much and we only just entered a new act, meaning we're still working our way to the middle.
I'm keeping a personal local copy of this and I have some scripts to keep some stats like word count. Here is what we have so far for each segment:
This totals to 35,707 words. Based on these numbers, the average words per post is 830 words, which is kind of surprising considering the 1,500 word limit. I'm not saying that we should all be hitting that wall (sometimes, more is less as was said) but it is noteworthy because the original limit was 700 words per post. Despite the change, we're only 130 words above the old limit!
I got a bit sidetracked. The point of all this has to do with pacing. It's now June 15th and so far, we've made 4 posts. If we keep going at this pace, we'll make another 4 posts at the end of the month, totaling 8.
If we continue to average at 830 words, we can estimate that we'll be writing 6,630 words every month (8*830). I estimate that, at the current internal pace of our story, it will take about 100k words to complete it. It's typical for fantasy to take this much. Actually, fantasy can take even more typically.
If our goal is 100k, this means that we need 64,293 words to complete it. If we're writing 6,630 words every month, we'll need 9.6 more months to complete the story.
There are two big assumptions with this math:
That's pretty close to my estimations. It's exact if you round up. I'm not saying that we should write faster but it helps to understand our capacity as a group. I know we all have lives we need to cater to.
It also helps us to define our expectations here. I'm fine with writing this for one more year but is everyone else? If not, we need to either think about picking up the writing pace or making the story much shorter. I got to say though: I can't really see us writing a compelling story if we restrict ourselves to something like 50k words. My experience in novel writing tells me that.
What does everyone think about that?
I'm keeping a personal local copy of this and I have some scripts to keep some stats like word count. Here is what we have so far for each segment:
segment 1 is: 454 words
segment 2 is: 519 words
segment 3 is: 543 words
segment 4 is: 589 words
segment 5 is: 809 words
segment 6 is: 418 words
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segment 30 is: 1309 words
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segment 2 is: 519 words
segment 3 is: 543 words
segment 4 is: 589 words
segment 5 is: 809 words
segment 6 is: 418 words
segment 7 is: 708 words
segment 8 is: 591 words
segment 9 is: 663 words
segment 10 is: 489 words
segment 11 is: 541 words
segment 12 is: 993 words
segment 13 is: 749 words
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segment 15 is: 599 words
segment 16 is: 716 words
segment 17 is: 1218 words
segment 18 is: 844 words
segment 19 is: 649 words
segment 20 is: 446 words
segment 21 is: 720 words
segment 22 is: 1486 words
segment 23 is: 457 words
segment 24 is: 1363 words
segment 25 is: 506 words
segment 26 is: 1294 words
segment 27 is: 336 words
segment 28 is: 1443 words
segment 29 is: 1275 words
segment 30 is: 1309 words
segment 31 is: 842 words
segment 32 is: 1454 words
segment 33 is: 1489 words
segment 34 is: 973 words
segment 35 is: 781 words
segment 36 is: 429 words
segment 37 is: 1306 words
segment 38 is: 442 words
segment 39 is: 586 words
segment 40 is: 577 words
segment 41 is: 1568 words
segment 42 is: 830 words
segment 43 is: 1200 words
This totals to 35,707 words. Based on these numbers, the average words per post is 830 words, which is kind of surprising considering the 1,500 word limit. I'm not saying that we should all be hitting that wall (sometimes, more is less as was said) but it is noteworthy because the original limit was 700 words per post. Despite the change, we're only 130 words above the old limit!
I got a bit sidetracked. The point of all this has to do with pacing. It's now June 15th and so far, we've made 4 posts. If we keep going at this pace, we'll make another 4 posts at the end of the month, totaling 8.
If we continue to average at 830 words, we can estimate that we'll be writing 6,630 words every month (8*830). I estimate that, at the current internal pace of our story, it will take about 100k words to complete it. It's typical for fantasy to take this much. Actually, fantasy can take even more typically.
If our goal is 100k, this means that we need 64,293 words to complete it. If we're writing 6,630 words every month, we'll need 9.6 more months to complete the story.
There are two big assumptions with this math:
- That the average stays the same throughout writing.
- That our goal is 100k and not less (or more)
That's pretty close to my estimations. It's exact if you round up. I'm not saying that we should write faster but it helps to understand our capacity as a group. I know we all have lives we need to cater to.
It also helps us to define our expectations here. I'm fine with writing this for one more year but is everyone else? If not, we need to either think about picking up the writing pace or making the story much shorter. I got to say though: I can't really see us writing a compelling story if we restrict ourselves to something like 50k words. My experience in novel writing tells me that.
What does everyone think about that?
Hey, cool new icon! I like it.
As for stakes, I agree. They should be higher. I think we need to learn what those are when we reach Cliffcross. It may have to do with time stopping or that effect spreading slowly throughout the kingdom. So, we could go for saving the kingdom/world. Which may actually be less motivation for Ravenna at least. I don't know about Katara. But if the world ended, Ravenna would be pretty happy, to be honest. She doesn't like her lot in life. So, finding something personal would be best.
That's true. I wondered that as I wrote my piece. They could just stay at Alua's for ages.
Yeah, that is a good start for her motivation. But I think we need her to get said memories back and within them is the new motivation to fight the queen. Also, maybe getting even with her family or whatever she feels best about doing.
Agreed. I was hoping when they started on this adventure, they would have motivations. I tried to set some stuff up, but it didn't pan out. So, we do need to give them more motivation. Also, honestly though, why would they listen to Gamma? (Honest question.) Maybe we can learn about it later, I am sure.
I have some ideas.
Agreed. It does feel shallow and I agree option 2 works best.
Agreed. But I think there is something there, though. We did talk before about Barnabas enticing Katara to live at the palace with him. If I remember correctly.
Anyway, below are my ideas for the characters. Don't worry if it's not what you want, but these are my suggestions:
Olive: Learns of her past and after getting her memory back, decides to fight the Queen. I am going to guess that she is either royalty or the rightful Heir to the throne, which would be a fun twist. This would also give her reason to confront and dethrone the current Queen. I would have this happen as it's interesting and with the way things are currently set up, would make a lot of sense. A lot of fantasy stories about about an heir who loses his or her memories and this seems like one of those stories.
Katara: I felt she would have gone along if she got to see new and exciting places. I felt she got swept into this whole adventure by being at the the wrong place and the wrong time. Same goes for Ravenna, more or less, from what I can remember. But I think once she learns (if we take this route) Olive is royalty, she will chase after the luxurious life and the power that comes with it. Yes, that makes her a bit like Barnabas, but I think it fits and also gives her reason to either later, join with Barnabas to live at the palace under cover. Or to try and take his place. I think it would be interesting if Katara ended up as the women's insider to the palace while Olive and Ravenna are planning to take down the Queen. At the end, I think Katara being an advisor or something artsy for the new Queen would be interesting. I also want to see her match wits with Arsbeth.
Ravenna: I think she wants to have closure with her family. She wants to just give up hope that they are alive, but can't. It would be interesting for her to look over the scientist's notes to confirm their deaths. I am also wondering WHY her family fell from grace- maybe that's part of a plot point. I also think IF Olive is the rightful heir, she can easily promise Ravenna she will stop scientists and mages from using Lab Rats for experiments and help her find her family. Then, Ravenna would be a staunch supporter and help however she is needed. If she does make it through the story, I think her happiest ending would be living a peaceful life in the palace.
___
As for stakes, I always like to think "what's the worst thing that could happen to these characters right now?"
Non-death/kidnapping options off the table, I have two ideas.
1. The assassin who took Olive's memories re-appears and the group has to flee ASAP/one of the two find a way to exchange their memories for Olive's. (Maybe through magic or something? So she gets her memory back, but at the cost of Katara or Ravenna's memories.)
2. The women never make it to Cliffcross as they are captured by Arsbeth or another branch of the royal guard. (Then Barnabas could bail Katara out of prison. Only Katara, because he's an asshole. The other two would either rot for the time being or be sent to one of the labs.)
3. The Alphabet Society has their own ends and betrays the women somehow. This one is not as clear for me. But it's another bad thing that could happen. The cat spirit could be evil.
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Wow. A lot of math! Thank you!
And yes, I understand what you're saying. That's why I have been skipping time a lot on some of the journey. Because I think it's imporant we keep moving the plot forward, rather than character development at times. It's a whole balancing act. The last thing I want is for people to get tired and NOT finish this story. So, I would say 'no'. We can't keep going for a whole year.
Any ideas or rule suggestions to move it along? Because I think we also all write time in-story differently and I think planning ahead could also help.
Olive getting her memories back is not happening any time soon. I have specific plans for it to happen during the climax, so that's end game.
I'll give a little hint: Yuuna and Olive's pasts are tied. The story has already hinted that once.
By the way, you mentioned a few times that Olive is royalty. She kind of is but you have to remember that she is from another country, so she has nothing to do with this country's royalty, and therefore has no connections to the castle.
If she did, she'd basically be the queen's sister or something. I can't imagine that! Though her own family are pretty much a bunch of assholes themselves. But the queen is more than an asshole. I've made her into a bit of a psychopath.
Katara would have to be a pretty adventurous sort of person to risk her life this much in order to see new places. Is she? I don't think this is inline with her current character. She certainly comes across as curious, but not adventurous.
Katara joining with Barnabas could happen. We can pull a Last Airbender and make her temporarily evil, ending that with a redemption arc.
But that's big stuff. It's up to Louanne.
Hmmm... Ravenna stopping the lab rat experiments could be a motivation, and a pretty good one at that. But she has shown no indication of having it so far. We'd need a pretty good and compelling way to create it, which I imagine would be up to you to do.
It can be done though. It could be part of her character arc.
I see no reason for the person who took Olive's memories to re-appear. He just acted on orders and right now, there is nobody to order him from doing so. We'd need a pretty compelling reason to have him back. I don't think we can realistically do that unfortunately.
And again, Olive is supposed to get her memories at a specific point, so that makes this whole thing out of the table.
A question that I keep having about Cliffcross is: What exactly is there? We've made it pretty important for our characters to get there but you also have to remember that the region's gear fragment has already been extracted by the queen, hence why time has stopped.
I don't mind the secrecy of course. I've made my fair share of plot points shrouded in secrecy, lol.
So, this could happen. They could get stopped from going there and then escape to go back. But if we do that, we need to clearly define what it is that they are being stopped from getting to in the first place.
No go. The Alphabet Society's goals are well in line with Olive's goals. In fact, they've made Olive part of their business.
I understand that. But there is a reason why fantasy stories are so long. They take lots of words to get right. I highly doubt that we can write a good story (if that's our goal) with any less than 90k words. I'm speaking from a pace point of view. Our story is paced pretty slowly, which is fine, but slower pace means more words to complete it.
Character development is extremely important, so we can't skip or water it down. On top of that, we have not one, but three main characters to worry about. You could argue that Olive would take the most words to write but that's still a lot overall. There are some stories that have flat-arc characters but I don't think writing such characters was our intention. The story is fundamentally written to support character development.
There is also the queen to think about. We'd have to develop her character as well to give it some base. I've been thinking of doing a backstory on her at some point. I just haven't found the opportunity.
We could maybe (and that's a big maybe) finish the story at 80k words but we'd need to make a huge step up in the story's pace and we'll also need to define a clear goal for our characters to hit.
But 80k words means we have 45k words left to write everything there is left to write. I'm not sure that's enough room.
Picking up the pace is the most realistic option. It would be great if we can finish this story by summer's end (October) but I don't know if this is possible for everyone.
October is 5 months away. If we keep the goal at 100k words and there are 64,293 words left to write, we'll need 78 more 830 segments to get there. Divide 78 segments over 5 months, and we'll need to write 15 segments a month to complete it. Remember that we're currently writing 8 segments a month approximately.
If we want to do it over 4 months, we need 20 segments a month.
And if we want to do it over 3 months, we need 26 segments a month.
It's pretty tough. But needless to say, I would like to finish this story, so it helps to become aware of this stuff now. Personally, it would be really nice if we can finish it by October, which is when I go back to university to write my thesis.
I always considered this an important development in the story. In the past, we also talked about how we expect each of the three young women to grow/develop as a result of their journey. But you're right, they each need a goal of their own.
Currently, of course, he does not know Katara is his daughter. So there's a whole sub-plot there that needs to be uncovered.
I'm sorry, I'm away on vacation right now so can't devote too much time to it, but thank you for putting the bug in our ear.
Not a problem. I hope you'll have a good time!
This really contradicts how I see my character Katara. She doesn't want others to do her chores because she is bossy, but because she has her mind on "bigger things" like science and poetry. She is not motivated by power or riches.
It also contradicts the Scriptures that say the three women must join forces and work together to prevail.
We had a discussion in the past about how we'd like to see each of the three women changed by the journey, and we all agreed that the journey would be a character-building exercise for each of them.
These three women are our protagonists. I strongly disagree with turning one into an antagonist.
Why do you think Barnabas is an asshole?
In the name of consistency, of all we have established so far, this would not work.
