The Philosophy Thread

[Louanne Learning]

Or as that old sage Mark Twain put it, "Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion---several of them."

Religion is a by-product of certain mental capacities humans evolved millions of years ago - especially our capacity to hold theories of mind. Theory of mind is the ability to make inferences about the mental states of others. Social interaction and organization are impossible without it. Fast forward a bit, and religion evolves (according to culture) based on this mental ability of ours - extended to believe we can know the minds of supernatural beings, like gods.

 

[JLT]

You just reminded me of something I said on the old site - That, years ago, I read that, in some cultures, a vase that has been cracked and repaired is considered more beautiful than a perfect specimen. The imperfection tells a story of triumph. “I have suffered, but I have survived.” Battle scars are to be worn proudly. It’s the imperfection that adds depth to the piece.

I have a "kintsugi" story. I had a Christmas plate that my mother broke when she fainted while trying to hang it. It was glued back together again, with some enamel paint applied to conceal a chip. I think I gave it to my sister or my nephew, with the story of why the accident occurred: it was the first sign of a battle with diabetes that lasted the rest of her life.

This begs the definition of "sin." Is it only something we do against ourselves, or against some authority?

Well, the Catholics don't make that distinction. It's perfectly possible to sin against yourself, with nobody else hurt in the process. But I guess that counts as "authority" if you think that the rule comes directly from God.

By the rules taught to me, I used to sin against myself every night. It was called "Onanism" even though I found out later that Onan's sin wasn't masturbation but what we would call coitus interruptus, because he refused to impregnate his brother's widow. (Cf Genesis 38:8-10). The Bible doesn't say anything about just jacking off, but it was used for centuries as a way of instilling guilt and shame into pubescent boys.

(But now I reflect on how a confessor at a Catholic boys' school might feel after hearing his fortieth confession of masturbation each day. "God, not yet another one!" he must have thought.)

 

[JLT]

Religion is a by-product of certain mental capacities humans evolved millions of years ago - especially our capacity to hold theories of mind. Theory of mind is the ability to make inferences about the mental states of others. Social interaction and organization are impossible without it. Fast forward a bit, and religion evolves (according to culture) based on this mental ability of ours - extended to believe we can know the minds of supernatural beings, like gods.

I've always thought that religion is not a by-product of theories of mind, at least at first. It was a way of making sense of the world. There's thunder because some god is being noisy. The sun goes across the sky because some god is driving it. The crop fails because some god is mad at us for something we did. As the child is taught that something happens because of something else (the pan burns your hand because it's been heated on the stove, your plant died because you didn't water it), he extrapolates that principle to the world at large. I guess that's where they start making guesses about what that supernatural being must be thinking, and how to appease it somehow.

 

[Louanne Learning]

I've always thought that religion is not a by-product of theories of mind, at least at first. It was a way of making sense of the world.

It can be both. These are not exclusionary.

There's thunder because some god is being noisy. The sun goes across the sky because some god is driving it. The crop fails because some god is mad at us for something we did.

All of these thoughts require that the thinker has a theory of mind about the god.

As the child is taught that something happens because of something else (the pan burns your hand because it's been heated on the stove, your plant died because you didn't water it), he extrapolates that principle to the world at large. I guess that's where they start making guesses about what that supernatural being must be thinking, and how to appease it somehow.

Yes.

Theory of mind can be extended to non-human objects. Remember the volleyball Wilson in the movie Castaway?

 

[Rath Darkblade]

Or as that old sage Mark Twain put it, "Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion---several of them."

Or as George Carlin put it (about religious wars): "Do you believe in god? No? *BANG!* Dead.

Do you believe in god? Yes? Do you believe in my god? No? *BANG!* Dead."

No more religious wars, please. I don't think a nuclear-armed planet can afford to have another Thirty Years' War.

 

[JLT]

No more religious wars, please. I don't think a nuclear-armed planet can afford to have another Thirty Years' War.

The next war probably won't be thirty years:

 

[Rath Darkblade]

The next war probably won't be thirty years:

Given that Tom wrote that song in the 60s, and how much further nuclear missiles have advanced since then, an hour-and-a-half sounds rather optimistic.

But let's look on the bright side: if a nuclear war does start, we'll probably never even know it.

And we will all go together when we go ...

 

[Louanne Learning]

Is all thought (as Camus says) anthropomorphic?

 

[Louanne Learning]

In another thread, I posted:

If biology is explained by chemistry, and chemistry is explained by physics, and physics is explained by mathematics, does that mean that human suffering can be explained by the cruelty of mathematics?

It led me to wonder: How do we reconcile mathematical precision with the absurdity of this existence?

 

[Homer Potvin]

In another thread, I posted:



It led me to wonder: How do we reconcile mathematical precision with the absurdity of this existence?

Why do those need reconciliation? I can't see what one has to with the other, anymore than, say, the price of bacon and daylight savings.

 

[Louanne Learning]

Why do those need reconciliation? I can't see what one has to with the other, anymore than, say, the price of bacon and daylight savings.

Our existence ultimately relies on mathematics. It determines everything that happens in our reality. Math is precise and purposeful. Can we say the same thing about human life? (Confession: I have been reading Albert Camus)

 

[Homer Potvin]

Math is precise and purposeful

Our existence ultimately relies on mathematics

Well, until you reach the quantum or cosmological level. Which, if you think about it, are the real lodestones of existence: how everything came to be and how everything continues to exist. So you can argue that math fails completely when dealing with the nitty-gritty of existence.

I have been reading Albert Camus

Barf!

 

[Louanne Learning]

Well, until you reach the quantum or cosmological level. Which, if you think about it, are the real lodestones of existence: how everything came to be and how everything continues to exist. So you can argue that math fails completely when dealing with the nitty-gritty of existence.

What happens in between the math and us?

Barf!

 

[Homer Potvin]

What happens in between the math and us?

I don't know. Life? Jolly Ranchers? Crack-cocaine? The hell are we talking about? Haha.

 

[Louanne Learning]

What happens in between the math and us?

I'm thinking it must be consciousness that leads humanity to a "constant confrontation between man and his own obscurity."

Why does our consciousness do that to us?

 

[Rath Darkblade]

I don't know, but when a story says "Consciousness fled" (or something to that effect), where does it flee to? Does it go down to El Paso to down a few margaritas?

 

[Louanne Learning]

I don't know, but when a story says "Consciousness fled" (or something to that effect), where does it flee to?

An out-of-body experience?

 

[JLT]

Math is precise and purposeful.

In my brother's first year at Princeton, he saw these words written on a blackboard:

"One plus one is three for all values of one sufficiently large and all values of three sufficiently small."

 

[Homer Potvin]

In my brother's first year at Princeton, he saw these words written on a blackboard:

"One plus one is three for all values of one sufficiently large and all values of three sufficiently small."

My Dad taught PhD courses in math. He always told me that the numbers are irrelevant after a certain level of matriculation. They don't even use them in the final courses.

 

[Louanne Learning]

So what is it - nature or nurture?

“It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness.”
― Karl Marx, A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy