The Philosophy Thread

[Louanne Learning]

Because I would postulate that every rational person seeks truth

I'm not sure that truth is limited to rationality. I believe that emotions can be true, too.

f one's beliefs include the miraculous or supernatural, then that influences what that person regards as true

This gets into the notion of subjective truth - and I've stated before - for me, subjective truth is truth, since it is true to the holder of it.

and for that person science would simply be a case of over-reliance on objective facts

But, you know, scientists don't use the word "truth" for their conclusions - the most they will say is "this is the best explanation for the evidence."

I would postulate a 3d, middle-path, that regards all attempts to intellectually define truth, with or without science or other logic, as being inherently futile and ultimately irrelevant.

We all live with our truths, and they are the guidelines to our decisions, so they are hardly irrelevant.

 

[GrahamLewis]

We all live with our truths, and they are the guidelines to our decisions, so they are hardly irrelevant.

I'm not saying our truths are irrelevant, I'm saying that intellectual requirements imposed on our truths can never be the sole grounds for supporting them. At some point everyone makes a leap of faith in deciding what to accept as their individual truth.

 

[GrahamLewis]

I'm not saying our truths are irrelevant, I'm saying that intellectual requirements imposed on our truths can never be the sole grounds for supporting them. At some point everyone makes a leap of faith in deciding what to accept as their individual truth.

If I may be indulged to quote some lower-case "scripture" here that underlies my personal truth, in chapter 20 of the Tao Te Ching (which, I suggest falls on the philosophy side of the science/philosophy/religion divide), Lao-Tsu is said to have written, "Give up learning and put an end to your troubles. Is there a difference between yes and no? Is there a difference between good and evil? Must I fear what others fear? What nonsense!" (Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English translation).

In her own translation of the same, the contemporary author Ursula K. Le Guin observes that these words "configure chaos, confusion, a 'bewilderness' in which the mind wanders without certainties, desolate, silent, awkward. But in that milky, dim strangeness lies the way. It can't be found in the superficial order imposed by positive and negative opinions, the good/bad, yes/no moralizing that denies fear and ignores mystery."

But of course, Lao-Tsu concludes the Tao Te Ching by reminding the reader that words and argument are essentially irrelevant, that "truthful words are not beautiful/Beautiful words are not truthful." (Ch. 20). So please forgive this late-night meandering and opinionating on my part (it's 3 a.m. and I awoke with this stuff in my mind.)

 

[Louanne Learning]

chapter 20 of the Tao Te Ching

I've read some of the Tao, as well, and in ch. 21, following ch. 20, there's some lovely poetry which gets into the nature of the Tao (and the difficulty of understanding it). Something about reaching for the intangible?

The grandest forms of active force
From Tao come, their only source.
Who can of Tao the nature tell?
Our sight it flies, our touch as well.
Eluding sight, eluding touch,
The forms of things all in it crouch;
Eluding touch, eluding sight,
There are their semblances, all right.
Profound it is, dark and obscure;
Things' essences all there endure.
Those essences the truth enfold
Of what, when seen, shall then be told.
Now it is so; 'twas so of old.
Its name—what passes not away;
So, in their beautiful array,
Things form and never know decay.

James Legge translation

 

[JLT]

But, you know, scientists don't use the word "truth" for their conclusions - the most they will say is "this is the best explanation for the evidence."

Exactly right. And that's the essence of scientific process. It's a method of examination, not a system of beliefs. And its fundamental premise is that ideas and concepts are always subject to refutation, and always must be so.

Which hearkens to Richard Feynman's famous quote "I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."