The Philosophy Thread

[Louanne Learning]

I used to think that love and hate were at opposite ends of a spectrum, but may the opposite of both is indifference.

 

[Rath Darkblade]

Both love and hatred are very strong emotions. *nods* But if hate is the opposite of love, what is the opposite of indifference - 'care', perhaps?

We (i.e. humanity) make the word 'love' do so many things. We can love our food, our drink, our family, our pets, our neighbours and our friends. We can love our city, our country, the world, our gods, each other - even lethal things, like tigers or bears (oh my). How far can we take love before it stops having any meaning?

Which reminds me of a fun episode of 'The Two Ronnies' I saw once, where they did a Victorian Christmas, ending with Gilbert-and-Sullivan parodies, and the reason I bring this up are these lyrics:

RC: I eat what I like and don't put on a pound.
RB: I like what I eat, that is why I'm so round.
RC: Just keep off the starches--
RB: I've got fallen arches
from carrying this lot around!

Not very philosophical, but fun anyway.

 

[Riddley Walker]

I think the reason that so much song and literature is devoted to the idea of love is because we crave it but really cannot fully grasp it. Love is truly beyond our understanding. The closest I can get to defining it is "intense concern." But everyone knows that's inadequate. Part of the trouble is, we use the word indescriminantly: " I love strawberries", "I love Paris, baseball, flip-flops, etc.". But these are preferences, small idiosyncrasies, not love. Love has the capacity to touch the divine and the divine is inately bigger than any individual or anyone's intellect.

 

[JLT]

Love is a 4-letter word.

Ah, the Nobel Prize winner for Literature, Robert Zimmerman. One of his poems, "Love Minus Zero - No Limit" is a regular on the set list of my jam group.

A friend of Mark Twain's asked him once: "Without love, what would the human race be?"

"Scarce, sir," Twain replied. "Mighty scarce."

He also wrote: "Love is a madness; if thwarted, it develops fast."

(When just typing this, I realized that Twain used a semicolon, a punctuation mark that his greatest admirer, Kurt Vonnegut, disparaged.)

He came closer to my definition (and used another semicolon) when he wrote: "Grief can take care of itself; but to get the full value of a joy you must have somebody to divide it with."

For me, love is an appreciation of incompleteness, a realization that one is not fully realized without a person to fill that gap. It need not be a fulfillment of sexual desires, although that may be a big part of it for some people and some stage of their lives. Think of it rather as a complement, a union that makes the partners something greater than they are individually, a dynamic of addition rather than subtraction.

 

[Homer Potvin]

(When just typing this, I realized that Twain used a semicolon, a punctuation mark that his greatest admirer, Kurt Vonnegut, disparaged.)

Usage has been plummeting since Twain's day. I saw something the other day about how it's dropped 50% in just the last 20 years.

 

[Trish]

I used to think that love and hate were at opposite ends of a spectrum, but may the opposite of both is indifference.

From a psychological perspective, they are both opposite ends of the spectrum and extremely close to each other. They even share similar neural pathways. I agree that the opposite is indifference, with the caveat that a lack of indifference does not automatically imply love or hate. It's... complicated, heh.

ut if hate is the opposite of love, what is the opposite of indifference - 'care', perhaps?

Quite literally, yes, indifference means lack of care.

Philosophy of love is so very difficult because very few people see it the same way. To explain why that is and how it all works you'd have to delve into psychology and how experiences influence the way we see and process the world. You'd have to delve into neurology and how those experiences determine which part of the brain lights up with different stimuli and how the brightness and density of that light translates to what we call feelings. That's not what this thread is about though, so... we're left with what it means to us.

Some people see love from the perspective of what it does for them (like JLT above), and some don't have any idea what it is or how to define it.

For me, love is simple - it's wanting the best for someone. That's it. The intensity of that love is shown in how willing you are to pursue someone else's happiness. Would you walk away if that was best for them? Regardless of what it did to you? Would you ask nothing of them other than their presence? Would you sit in silence with them just so they knew they weren't alone? Would you support their endeavors even if it didn't mean anything to you other than your wish to see them smile? See them happy? Would you love them even if they did something you didn't understand, or that you found abhorrent? If your child became a serial killer, would you still love them even while hating what they'd done? What about your spouse or your best friend? Your parent?

And I'm not at all suggesting that you must give up who you are to love someone else. I'm simply saying that I believe real love is hard sometimes, because it's unconditional. It's not fleeting, it is durable and immutable, and it's very hard to find. To love someone, in any capacity, you have to be willing to accept them for who they are, not who you wish them to be. And isn't that really all anyone wants?

 

[Louanne Learning]

How far can we take love before it stops having any meaning?

I don't think it ever loses its meaning, we just have to understand the nuance of how it's used.

Today, I went out for lunch with mom, my sister and her daughter. We went to the Watering Can in Vineland, which is a huge plant and craft market, about the size of two football fields, and there are the most beautiful plants everywhere! Their Bistro is like eating in a jungle, with large green plants dividing all the tables. It really is a magical place. Today, while we were there, I said, "I love this place."

Everyone understood my meaning. Is it in the same category of how I love my husband? Well, no. But it fits both curcumstances.

 

[Louanne Learning]

because we crave it but really cannot fully grasp it. Love is truly beyond our understanding.

I love this. And even when you do realize that you have experienced true love, it still holds a lot of mystery. Not in the love itself, but in the amazing capacity for human beings to be so fully connected with another human being.

 

[Louanne Learning]

"Grief can take care of itself; but to get the full value of a joy you must have somebody to divide it with."

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but I never would have got through losing my husband without my family.

a realization that one is not fully realized without a person to fill that gap.

In my experience, it's not that a gap was filled, but we made each other bigger.

 

[Louanne Learning]

it's wanting the best for someone.

Bingo. Right on.

 

[Trish]

I don't think it ever loses its meaning, we just have to understand the nuance of how it's used.

Today, I went out for lunch with mom, my sister and her daughter. We went to the Watering Can in Vineland, which is a huge plant and craft market, about the size of two football fields, and there are the most beautiful plants everywhere! Their Bistro is like eating in a jungle, with large green plants dividing all the tables. It really is a magical place. Today, while we were there, I said, "I love this place."

Everyone understood my meaning. Is it in the same category of how I love my husband? Well, no. But it fits both curcumstances.

Yeah, I don't think any reasonable person would assume they were the same thing.

 

[Schism]

The laughing philosopher said what happens out of love will always take place beyond good and evil.

 

[Louanne Learning]

The laughing philosopher said what happens out of love will always take place beyond good and evil.

This is so interesting you have taken me away from the final paragraph of the story I am almost done.

Laugh ... love ... good ... evil ... I gotta think about this....

 

[Schism]

This is so interesting you have taken me away from the final paragraph of the story I am almost done.

Laugh ... love ... good ... evil ... I gotta think about this....

Well it was more or less a Nietzsche quote, he's always food for thought though.

 

[Louanne Learning]

I just finished my story!

Well, here are my thoughts .... Laughter is a big part of love. It's happiness, and love is happiness. My husband and I were big on laughing. it's almost a rebuke of when things go wrong. Yeah, laughter is a sword and shield.

The connection between good and evil and love is not immediately apparent. Good an evil describes behavior, love describes emotion.

All I got, is that love is good.

 

[Louanne Learning]

Should the highest goals of any political system be justice or morality? Or something else?

 

[Stuart Dren]

Should the highest goals of any political system be justice or morality? Or something else?

Political system governing a state?

Absolute most important is probably maintaining identity, characterizing memes and values. Otherwise you might as well just be absorbed into another country.

Second highest could be justice, yeah. Some of England's best kings were the ones who helped established rule of law. Without it the state grows sick, then is more likely fall to its enemies.

The ancient personification is cold, inspirational:

Lady Justice - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Louanne Learning]

most important is probably maintaining identity

Depends, too, what that identity is. For example, a forced religious conformity helps those in power more than the common people.

But on the other hand, an identity grounded in protecting human rights serves the greater good

established rule of law. Without it the state grows sick, then is more likely fall to its enemies.

Totally agree with this. Especially in protecting human rights. Good segue to Lady Justice.

Three important symbols - scales (balanced evidence and arguments), blindfold (impartiality), and sword (authority)

I'm not too sure about the sword, though.

And it's interesting she is a woman. What is the significance of that?

 

[Schism]

The bible stretched upon that open plain. Now it's time to do more era appropriate things, lest the masses devour a self-proclaimed anachronism.

 

[Trish]

I'm not too sure about the sword, though.

The sword also represents enforcement, if I remember correctly.