Today I learned...

[Trish]

Mark Twain said, "Education is what you must acquire without any interference from your schooling." By that, I think he meant that while facts and times-tables and such may be important, they mustn't distract from the fact that the true purpose of education is not simply to learn, but to learn how to learn. If it can't do that, it's fairly useless in most people's daily lives.

That and also - learning to separate influence from facts. It's shocking the way teachers push their own agendas in class settings now. It was bad when I was a kid, it's absolutely horrific now. Many (not all, of course) are not teaching, they are indoctrinating. To the point kids don't get to make choices about what they've read or learned. They aren't given space to make their own decisions about what those things mean. Even in areas that interpretation is a necessary skill and there are no right or wrong answers, they are being taught that there ARE right and wrong answers. The critical thinking is the most important part of schooling and that part has largely been deleted.

 

[Homer Potvin]

My corollary to all that--particularly to the students of the world--is don't be an idiot, a fool, or a sucker. If you think anything remotely connected to the macro operation of society--schools, churches, government, media, et al--every operates with your best interests at heart, you're a fucking idiot.

My corollary to that would be to recognize the difference between associated individuals and the institutions they represent. You can trust the former but never the latter.

And was critical thinking or logic ever taught in schools? I missed it and I'm almost 50. Maybe our septuagenarians can weigh in on that.

 

[Trish]

And was critical thinking or logic ever taught in schools? I missed it and I'm almost 50. Maybe our septuagenarians can weigh in on that.

It was for me, and I've still got a few years before I hit 50. Maybe I was just lucky, but when I pointed out the inconsistencies or gave an alternative view of characterization I didn't get points deducted or failed for wrong answers. I got graded on effort and (usually) pulled aside and told something along of the lines of "state mandated test will require X answer" so I wouldn't fail.

By comparison my son was failed on a paper for pointing out legitimate inconsistencies in the taught curriculum (with legitimate, verifiable, non-wiki bullshit) citations and my daughter nearly failed a class for showing an alternative political view to her teacher at the time and had to adjust her answers to the echo chamber her instructor required. In that case it was a political class where they were supposed to be "exploring" both sides and arguing for both, but that's not actually what the teacher wanted. She wanted "this side bad, this side good" and it needed to align with her very public (bumper stickers, t-shirts, posters) views if you wanted to pass.

 

[JLT]

And was critical thinking or logic ever taught in schools? I missed it and I'm almost 50. Maybe our septuagenarians can weigh in on that.

As a septuagenarian, I can attest that I took one course in my senior hear in high school (1965-1966). It was called "sociology" but was really a course in being presented information and analyzing it for merit. We took on subjects like racial bias, drug use, and moral issues and debated them. Miss Costello, the teacher, would just sit back and smile as we made our points, but seldom interrupted unless we were straying off topic. I loved that class.

Interestingly, I remember that one of my best friends wrote in a homework essay that he might take LSD if it were presented to him. I wrote that I would never take any drugs. Three years later, we met again, and I learned that he had not had any drug experiences, while I had been using pot and LSD quite a bit.

 

[Homer Potvin]

LSD

First time was great. Second time was... not. Never been a third.

It made a comeback awhile ago. 2018 - 19ish it seemed like everyone around the restaurants was getting back into it, but only the older people. Now the kids don't even drink. Craziness.

 

[Rath Darkblade]

And, by god, logic, so that kids would learn how to recognize straw men, slippery slopes, and post hoc, propter hoc, and all that. These are indispensable tools in determining the validity of arguments.

Agreed 100%. I never learned any kind of logic in school (not in a structured or formal way), but since English was my second language, my parents kindly got me an English tutor in my final year of High School.

Before that, I believed everything I read, because I never learned otherwise. My tutor taught me to question why some things were written the way they were written. As a 17 year old, it blew my mind (and without any need for LSD!)

IIRC, George Carlin once said, "Don't just teach your children to read. Children who wanna read are gonna read. Teach them to question what they read. Teach them to question everything."

That and also - learning to separate influence from facts. It's shocking the way teachers push their own agendas in class settings now. It was bad when I was a kid, it's absolutely horrific now. Many (not all, of course) are not teaching, they are indoctrinating. To the point kids don't get to make choices about what they've read or learned. They aren't given space to make their own decisions about what those things mean. Even in areas that interpretation is a necessary skill and there are no right or wrong answers, they are being taught that there ARE right and wrong answers. The critical thinking is the most important part of schooling and that part has largely been deleted.

*points up to the George Carlin quote.*

My niece told me about one substitute teacher at a school that one of her friends is at, who came into the classroom, sat in a yoga pose, asked one of the children to open a window ... and then started smoking weed. I don't know if that story is true (and let's face it, some people exaggerate or even make up stories), but if there was nothing behind it, it's horrifying that the kids would make something like that up.

As for areas where there are no right or wrong answers ... when I was very young, I was taught that 2 + 2 = 4. Many years later, I learned about how some rich people's kids can misbehave in class or give repeatedly wrong answers, and the teachers are powerless to intervene because "My daddy can..." etc. (Something like this happened to my mum, who was a music teacher for nearly 40 years before her retirement).

So apparently, 2 + 2 can be anything you want, if your parents are rich enough.

I used to do algebra problems just for fun. And I did OK in higher math classes until I got to integral calc. That was my Achilles' heel.

There's no killer app I haven't run (run!)
At Pascal well I'm number one (one!)
Do vector calculus just for fun--
I ain't got a gat, but I gotta soldering gun.

("Weird Al" Yankovic, "White and Nerdy")

 

[Louanne Learning]

education in civics, where we used to learn how laws were made and governments were constructed, and how important voting and information was to forming the kind of government

I believe most states still teach civics, around grade 7 or 8 (when I believe they are too young to understand the implications of what they are learning) - and it's important to note that the curriculum is determined at state level so there may be a lot of difference in how it is approached between, say Massachusetts and Alabama

And as a former teacher, I can attest to the fact that how exactly it is taught comes down to the individual teacher in the classroom

logic, so that kids would learn how to recognize straw men, slippery slopes, and post hoc, propter hoc, and all that. These are indispensable tools in determining the validity of arguments.

I would so support a course in this. At the same time, critical thinking should be something taught in every single course

I googled "core curriculum for Finland" - just because they always top the lists of "happiest countries in the world" and I thought this below was an interesting component of their core curriculum for elementary and secondary schools -

The core curriculum places an emphasis on transversal competences in instruction. A changing society demands more and more transversal skills and competences. Therefore it is important that each subject promotes transversal competences.

The aims set for transversal competences include

• thinking and learning to learn
• cultural competence, interaction and self-expression
• taking care of oneself and managing daily life
• multiliteracy
• ICT competence
• working life competence and entrepreneurship
• participation, involvement and building a sustainable future

The aims of transversal competences are specified in the national core curriculum. Education providers are able to further define them according to their individual areas of emphasis. Transversal competences are always taught, studied and assessed as part of the different subjects.

"Education is what you must acquire without any interference from your schooling."

I have a disturbing story to share. When my mom was in grade 3 (around 1940), she was in a split grade 3/4. Her brother was in grade 4 in the same class. The entire class was given the task of writing out their times-table, up to 12X12. They had to write it all out within a specified time. At the end of the time, only 3 students got the entire times table written out. (My uncle was one of them.) All other students had to line up and file in the back room, where they got a strap on their hand for not completing the times table in the allotted time. Girls got the strap on one hand, and boys got it on both hands.

 

[Louanne Learning]

I used to do algebra problems just for fun.

I have clear memories of learning to solve equations with letters in them. I felt like I had encountered a new language that opened a whole new world to me. I always absolutely loved math in school. I realize now that it is in part connected to having a brain that responds to symbolic representations - whether numbers or letters - and finding/uncovering meaning in them. It is nothing about smart or not smart, just an affinity for symbols.

 

[JLT]

when I was very young, I was taught that 2 + 2 = 4.

I think I maybe told this before: when my brother went to his first math class at Princeton University, there was something written on the blackboard as he entered the room:

"1 + 1 = 3 for all values of 1 sufficiently large and all values of 3 sufficiently small."

That was when he knew he wasn't in Kansas anymore.

 

[defaux]

I think I maybe told this before: when my brother went to his first math class at Princeton University, there was something written on the blackboard as he entered the room:

"1 + 1 = 3 for all values of 1 sufficiently large and all values of 3 sufficiently small."

That was when he knew he wasn't in Kansas anymore.

I had, think I may still have lying around somewhere, a mathematical proof one of my teachers wrote out for me as a joke, that 1 = 2.
Advanced mathematics is super weird.

 

[Rath Darkblade]

I think I maybe told this before: when my brother went to his first math class at Princeton University, there was something written on the blackboard as he entered the room:

"1 + 1 = 3 for all values of 1 sufficiently large and all values of 3 sufficiently small."

That was when he knew he wasn't in Kansas anymore.

I had, think I may still have lying around somewhere, a mathematical proof one of my teachers wrote out for me as a joke, that 1 = 2.
Advanced mathematics is super weird.

Ah, but did either of you (or people you know) have to write a paper about -- deep breath time -- analytic and algebraic topology of locally Euclidean metrization of infinitely differentiable Riemannian manifold? (боже мой?)

 

[Kiraann]

Actually, it was yesterday that I learned this: the Season 2, Episode 10 title of I Love Lucy was changed by CBS to be “Lucy Is Enceinte” instead of “Lucy Is Pregnant”.

CBS management felt that the plain English word, for a married woman, was too controversial in 1952.

I believe this was how Desi Jr was introduced to the US.

PS: “enceinte” is French.

 

[CatrionaGrace]

...analytic and algebraic topology of locally Euclidean metrization of infinitely differentiable Riemannian manifold? (боже мой?)

I like that. Maximum verbosity in term papers is always desirable. Best I ever managed was " Interspecific Hybridization of Gossypium hirsutum and Gossypium barbadense." It was an interesting paper. I usually tried to choose topics that could transfer between courses to cut down on the number of papers I had to write every semester. I used the paper on Israeli drip irrigation systems in my irrigation class and the class on the history of modern Israel. The paper on erosion was appropriate for both the environmental influences class and, with revisions and additions, my senior paper in agronomy. I liked research and writing, but one semester, I had term papers due in half a dozen different classes. Something had to give.

 

[Louanne Learning]

Today I learned a new joke.

Have you heard about the new movie called Constipation?

It hasn't come out yet.

 

[JLT]

Ah, but did either of you (or people you know) have to write a paper about -- deep breath time -- analytic and algebraic topology of locally Euclidean metrization of infinitely differentiable Riemannian manifold? (боже мой?)

I know where you got that from.

But you know that Tom Lehrer reminded us that Lobachevsky was actually a well-respected mathematician rather than the idea-stealing villain of that song. The name was chosen for "purely prosodic reasons."

 

[JLT]

Today I learned a new joke.

Have you heard about the new movie called Constipation?

It hasn't come out yet.

I thought it would be a moving experience.

 

[CatrionaGrace]

Stop with the crappy jokes, already.