Agree entirely. I don't believe in not writing about things because they're hard or might upset someone.
What Won't You Write?
- Thread starter Luxuria
- Start date
Because it's about the characters and the story, not the audience. I find it a little suspicious that anyone would take an event in a story as a personal attack inflicted upon them.
First - who said it didn't push the plot forward? No examples were given that I saw.
Second- plot is only one aspect of a story. Characterization is important, and characters are shaped by the things they experience, good and bad, the same as real people are.
I honestly agree with this. Why is rape 'off-limits', but I could go full John Wick in a book with no problems? Everyone would LOVE THAT. Hell, we have a murder mystery GENRE! Like, I get that it's different as it's intimate and personal, but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't write it.
Agreed! I think it's important to keep the dark things, especially in historical fiction, because we can't forget the evil humanity is capable of doing. Because we don't want to repeat history. Also, in fiction, it's FICTION! Not real. All made up.
So, it's fair game as far as I know. Again, the audience has a right not to read something I write. Also, if rape is disgusting in a book, then why not murder? Or kidnapping? Or mass shootings a la John Wick? (Or real-life shooter). If writing rape or something in a book is bad, then you can never read an Agatha Christie or Doyle or Harper Lee, or Stoker, Margaret Atwood, the Christian Bible, Suzanne Collins- because they all have MURDER! Lot's of murder and some rape. As for being 'suspicious', that again is a judgement that what writers write is either a 'unconscious desire/fantasy'. Which is not true. Because then, is Agatha Christie a mass-murderer? I mean, she spent a LOT of time contemplating how to kill her characters. So, it's like she's killed someone.
Anyway, as for rape scenes that don't forward the plot, I agree. If it doesn't forward the plot or characters, maybe think about either making it relevant or cutting it. But I won't tell someone not to write it. Because there are fanfics out there that are Porn without Plot- all is fair game.
And again, WHY do you view the audience as helpless people who have 'bad things inflicted' upon them? They are fully capable of NOT reading something or stopping the book they are reading if they don't like it. They aren't helpless and it's not our jobs as authors to cater to their fragile feelings. I have watched some anime that I have stopped in the middle of an episode, because I don't like it. Then, never touched it again, because it was not something I wanted to watch, because I disagreed with how some topics were being handled by the creator. But that doesn't mean that creator shouldn't have made that anime.
YES! Exactly. Agreed. It's fiction. You can close the book or toss it in garbage if you don't like it. And yeah, the whole idea that words 'can hurt' in a story is stupid.Because it's about the characters and the story, not the audience. I find it a little suspicious that anyone would take an event in a story as a personal attack inflicted upon them.
This. When the ARC for my book came out, a couple of attendees at a indie bookstore owner/librarian conference devoted to new books contacted the publisher suggesting trigger warnings be added to (I kid you not) the page with the copyright information. I said no and will continue to say no to requests for trigger warnings. It is not up to me to decide who may be triggered by what. I'm a writer, not a psychologist.
Agreed. I love the line 'I'm a writer, not a psychologist', because it's true! If a book is so upsetting, please talk to someone qualified, instead of bitching to the author. And yeah. I would not put warnings on stuff, either. I am sorry that happened to you.
Also, I realize I have been a bit harsh. So, let me present a possible alternative that might work for people who want warnings in their books and ones who do not.
Put warnings on a RED colored page in the BACK of the book. Because I personally hate when I open a book and 'bam!' the trigger warnings. To me, those are just fancy spoilers! So, put them in the back on a dedicated page if needed. I just hate when they are right up front. Let me CHOOSE if I want to be spoiled/warned.
Put warnings on a RED colored page in the BACK of the book. Because I personally hate when I open a book and 'bam!' the trigger warnings. To me, those are just fancy spoilers! So, put them in the back on a dedicated page if needed. I just hate when they are right up front. Let me CHOOSE if I want to be spoiled/warned.
There's been a lot of response to what I said in various ways, all of which is interesting and made me feel like I should come back to it.
I don't think that people shouldn't write about rape period - no-one ever said I did but worth stating I think. And I don't even think people should even agree with me not wanting to do it.
I do struggle with why. I do also struggle with why it feels difference to violence, to murder to me. So I'll talk about some of what I wrote in this dark comedy. In episode one you have this gang of rapists with one hanger on, hunting down our main character in the post apocalypse. And they say some heinous shit. The implications of what they have done before, their rationale/excuses for it. They're not funny, they are monsters, with one guy who allows it to survive. That's their role in the bit - to be monsters, and then to get their gruesome comeuppance including the dick of one being used as a puppet, and another one blown to bits by aliens (it's a weird story).
The whole story (it was a whole dark comedy series of 4 seasons) is metaphorically and literally about her (main characters) recovery from abuse from her father - who is still alive, and finds her at points throughout the series. About suffering terrible things, walking that barren valley, growing and being able to live a happy life on the other side. About the comedy in terrible things. It was a huge, extremely tricky project, leaning hard on the dark in dark comedy, and sometimes I want to go back to it. My dad will not stop talking about me going back to it, even when I talk about the literal book I'm working on.
But A, I've moved past it - it was an enormous project, it was hard and I probably wasn't that good at it. And also, (and actually I think this is really important) it was a TV series. Which now thinking about it, changes the dynamic of the question dramatically.
And B, why? What is someone gaining from watching this? It's much more dark than funny, it's subject matter is grim and difficult and the heroes constantly lose. And who is it for? The edgy, dark, depressed me? I'm not really that guy anymore, at least not anything like as much, and if I the author am not into the material, then what's the point?
And this is a key detail. If you're going to include it, why? To make another character want revenge? To show how evil someone is? Well, you can do that with murder. I think violence is, in a sense, a easy go to for solving conflict. Because Dr Evil Bad probably isn't going to be talked down. So the violence is a cathartic solution that we've agreed upon for solving the problem of evil in stories and showing that someone is evil.
So where does rape fit? I think the vast majority of the time it just doesn't. I think to have it in a story it desperately needs a fundamental reason. And I had that in my story, maybe (a story of recovery from a heinous wound). But even then, you need to get it right or maybe you are just getting it so wrong.
I do still love that story, and the characters. I actually wrote the final episode, and loved it, and just writing about it wonders if maybe I'll go back to finish it. But those guys I mentioned above make me feel ill. Just like I don't want to watch Wolf Creek ever again, and just like I don't want to watch something about child abuse, I find the prospect of writing that, and frankly how it might be received, unappetizing to say the least. And frankly it's not that high up the list of projects I want to do.
I do also think it's important that I'm a guy. I kind of wanted a woman to almost co-write it after a while because it was so important to get the main character and her journey right and I lack that perspective, but as a project in my time of trying to write for TV it petered out. I do think it would have been incredibly difficult to get right and I think the crux of the thing is this: it just wasn't worth getting wrong.
I will also note though, that Erikson has written about both in his Malazan books, and while sometimes it's incredibly uncomfortable I don't think he does it badly necessarily. And plenty of other authors too I imagine. But I also imagine he's a better writer than I am.
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Thank you for returning. I understand what you're saying and sorry that my reading comprehension was sub-par on your post. But yeah, it wasn't about 'not writing' something. I appreciate your thoughts as I agree with a lot of them. I appreciate your thoughts on all this and I think the issue is that some (not you) are quick to judge people. I am honestly, too. Not going to lie. So sorry for the misunderstanding. And haha, agreed. Just because I will write something or not, doesn't mean someone else has to agree with me.
Also, thank you for the longer explaination and yeah, I understand why you didn't feel drawn to writing that story anymore. And that's okay. If a story doesn't seem interesting or comfortable to you, then you shouldn't write it.
I think the big issue is that some (not you) mistake the idea that if they are uncomfortable writing or reading something, other people shouldn't write it or the author is at fault for their feelings.
I understand. It is a strange question to ponder and I think I have figured it out. Rape is a murder, without death. It's weird to say that, but to me, in a story, it feels more merciful to just kill a character.
Yeah. Reminds me a little of Game Of Thrones - and three different things. The Red Wedding is the Red Wedding. Devastating, and terrible, but an end. Then you have the Viper. His end is worse, and more scored into my memory. I had to console myself by finding behind the scene pictures of the mountain and Pedro Pascal in behind the scenes pictures, to remember that it's just TV and no-one had those things happen to them.
And then there's the threat Ramsey gives to Jon in Season 6. The things he says about what he would do to Sansa. Thank the lord those never came to pass.
You're right, death is more merciful to characters sometimes. Oh and no need to apologize, it's good conversation.
Yeah, I agree with you. It's weird how it does seem like a worse thing than murder. Which, I personally believe it is and should have more legal repercussions. But yeah, it's strange that the Red Wedding was a tragedy and (I haven't gotten to that part of the story) happened to the other character was more impactful as a viewer. And agreed. Good thing Sansa is (somewhat) okay.
Death really is. And oh, thanks. I was worried I was being too harsh and stuff. It has been a really good conversation and I have enjoyed talking with you.
I can't say what I would never write, but I can say until now I've never write porn or it's eqivalent. Not because I'm prudish, but because my stories ae generally clean. One story did have a sex scene in it but I deleted it because I felt it didn't add spice to the story and besides, how the characters interacted beforehand gave a clue about what they'd be like between the sheets. To be honest, I find most sex scenes boring, basic and seems to be written by sexually unadventurous people.
When I talked about trigger warnings before I was talking about one specific sub genre where they're pretty much required. While I do read that genre and I never bother to check TW's (I like to be surprised too) most people who read it do check them first. Many of the authors in that genre don't put them in the book though, they only put them on their website with a "check blahblah.com for trigger warnings" in the book and I personally think that's the best option for that genre. Any other genre I probably would not agree to TW's and I definitely wouldn't want them in the book in any genre.
That's fair. I get annoyed though that books START with the warnings on page 1. Like, let me read it in peace! Like, this book: https://www.amazon.com/This-Ravenous-Fate-Hayley-Dennings-ebook/dp/B0CL9Z7XSQ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=XY6LGMWO18OA&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.felZvip-uPUjeNQYdNPqrdaqKep-g8BfRzT6OrB6TmhrA3QGwl_0VQh-nFC86GUxGWsUS0skhm6mLx-oXIp3SDbKLgAvYrgr40KJH1ueL0myrf1TrsFRPzcVFGXlz_3UdzmvXEl-YuGOyu_mMkSA3akxV4xBRWJOCRldkA-jHSRb0f_p-v0gC1AJMcme5WMH7scaH3BjPLHxq9VKB0M-Kg.1jW6NWT5kL_mWSeT15Kba5HSbE92WWQhW-Lb98nuBqM&dib_tag=se&keywords=This+Ravenous+Fate&qid=1749758591&sprefix=this+ravenous+fate,aps,112&sr=8-1
Has warnings page 2 before the story starts and the library I got it from highlight the trigger warnings before even telling me WHAT the book is about. Which is a real story-killer. It just makes me not want to read it- because I have been given spoilers. Also, why is the Romantsy Genre so caught up on warnings? Why does this genre use them and others don't? Why are the best option for that genre? (Genuinely curious.) But anyway, I just don't want these warnings to be the first thing I read. That's why having a page IN THE BACK of the book is a good compromise IF they MUST be in there.
I did these out of order... oops.
I think maybe what you describe is part of the problem. There is no way to "get it right". Every single person who has been violated in that way deals with it differently. We put this pressure on ourselves that it has to be correct, it has to be true, it has to be real, it has to be respectful, and like... how? How do you make a violation like that respectful? I think the focus is in the wrong place - it has to be true and real for the character and the story - that is all.
You know what I've never heard? I've never heard anyone give an acceptable reason for raping someone or for being raped. Not one single time. There is no good reason for anyone to do it or have it happen to them. There are excuses people give, there are deflections, redirection, blame placed, justifications, etc. but not one of them ever stands up.
It is the same with stories. Whether the character was in the wrong place at the wrong time, on a date, sent nudes, whatever, the rapist was never entitled to do what they did.
Character recovery and coping are as different as the human versions. There is no right way. There is only survival - hopefully.
And you being a man? It doesn't mean you have no perspective. If you have a mother, daughter, sister, friend, girlfriend, wife, female co worker, etc. that you can't imagine that happening to you have the right to write it. And not for nothing- men are raped every day too. It's not a female only thing. We don't have a monopoly on it.
Your characters are monsters and your main character is surrounded. Sounds like a real life scenario that's played out for far too many men and women in this world.
Oh good lord. Those are not things that should require spoilers at all.
It's not the romantasy genre- it's the *dark* romantasy genre and it's specifically because of kinks. There are some wild kinks and there are books involving *all* of them. Some TW lists can contain 15+ kinks in one book. And while some of them are really basic and shouldn't require a warning, there are others that are... I don't want to be too judgy so I'll just stick with wild. Also this is a PG forum in that respect and I don't want to mention anything that could be a problem. If you have more questions, feel free to pm me and I can explain better.
100% this. Because each person is an individual who had or has different experiences with different topics. May I also say the same applies to writing diverse characters. No 1 person is going to have the exact same experience growing up as an minority or whatever. Do the research to avoid stereotypes, but know you won't get it 100% 'right' because each person in the WORLD has a different experience. So, just write your characters as you wish to write them.
Also, @Trish you have phrased this so well and your previous posts, too. I think a beer or 5 are in order for you. You nailed this!
Agreed! Yeah! There is NO reason a character can give that aren't one of these. Murder though, there is self-defense, accident, etc. That's why it feels different, I believe.
Exactly! I agree whole-heartedly. There IS no 'right way' and I think that's a good message to have in a story. There is 'no right way' to recover from X, Y, or Z. (It's honestly a point I make in one of my current WIPs.)
I agree with this, too. It's not hard to put yourself in another person's shoes. For me, at least. And yes! Men can be affected, too. But it feels like people don't want to talk about that even more. But yeah, if you can put yourself in another person's shoes, you're good to go. I think approaching things with respect is good, too. But know it won't be 100% perfect and that's okay!
Anyway Trish, thanks so much for your thoughts as they really are spot on.
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Thank you! Because before the prologue- The PROLOUGE! There is a content warning that reads, on it's own seperate page:
Content warning: This book includes scenarios involving emotional abuse, obsessive compulsive disorder, anxiety, suicidal ideations, violence, murder, racism, and mentions of a race massasare.
I am not kidding. That is the warning word for word. At the front of the book before I even START reading. Like, I have personal issues with some of the warnings, but if an author WANTS warnings, that's fine. Just don't stick them up front before the story even starts. Like, back of the book! Red page! Ugh.
Yeah, I get it. But I feel 'Dark' is pretty subjective and so it's spiraled to every other book in the genre. I get warning for kinks. There are things I don't want to read when it comes to sexy times. I can see where it's helpful and I do agree the warnings should there for weird kinks. And haha, I get it. I don't want to judge, but I will. Because I can, but that doesn't mean the writer can't write it or other people can't read it. And I think I understand what you're saying, but yeah. I may PM you, because I am enjoying speaking to you.
Thank you! Here's one for you so you can join me
I'm just so glad it made sense outside of my head
You're welcome! Thanks for the beer!Thank you! Here's one for you so you can join me
I'm just so glad it made sense outside of my head
Cheers!
Yeah, that's unnecessary nonsense. I completely agree.
This is true, but most of what I've read it's on a website and you're just directed there, and I don't mind that at all.
Feel free and same!
