There were two Catholic Churches in the town where I grew up in the 80s. One added the "for thine is the kingdom" addendum while the other did not. They were maybe two miles away in with the same people going to both churches.
Characters and prayer.
- Thread starter Rath Darkblade
- Start date
You've had two millenia lads, sort it out.
I'm in agreement with Robert Clairborne that, while the King James version of the Bible uses archaic grammar and syntax that appear unfamiliar to the modern ear, its value as poetry cannot be slighted. He quotes the passage in Ruth where she is replying to Naomi's request that she return to her own people:
Entreat me not to leave thee
Or to return from following after thee,
For whither thou goest,I will go
And where thou lodgest, I will lodge;
Thy people shall be my people,
And thy God, my God;
Where thou diest, will I die
And there I will be buried.
Here's the NIV version:
Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God;Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried.
The words are there, but the poetry is gone. The parallel structure of the original Hebrew is discarded, and its diversion from that structure in the last line "And there will I be buried" serves as a sort of coda, abruptly switching from the active voice to the passive voice.
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Pyroglyphian
Member
I don't have a problem with it, Rath. At least, I don't think, on its own, it would detract from my enjoyment of the book.
I think you’ve hit on an interesting point, though – interpreting feedback is a bit of a skill in itself.
For example:
If a few thees and thines can derail the experience, how would they fare with Paradise Lost? Perhaps it's not the right book for them – at least at this point. It took me three attempts to read Naked Lunch, and on the third, it became (and remains) one of my favourite books. In hindsight, the first two attempts were warm-ups.
I think you’ve hit on an interesting point, though – interpreting feedback is a bit of a skill in itself.
For example:
It could be that this aspect of your work is universally tiresome, but it could also just mean that this one individual found it so, and there could be many reasons why. Perhaps they had endured a stressful day at work and just wanted to unwind with something completely un-taxing. Perhaps they were hungry. Perhaps they live in an apartment block and were distracted by next-door neighbours putting up new shelves, drilling and hammering on the wall, and so on.
If a few thees and thines can derail the experience, how would they fare with Paradise Lost? Perhaps it's not the right book for them – at least at this point. It took me three attempts to read Naked Lunch, and on the third, it became (and remains) one of my favourite books. In hindsight, the first two attempts were warm-ups.
Catrin Lewis
Active Member
I haven't studied how people who worshipped the old deities addressed their gods. I do know that in Christianity, back when the English language still used separate forms for the second person singular/familiar and the second person plural/formal, you used the informal singular for God, just as you would for the members of your family and your good friends. It showed how close He was to you. Thou, thee, thine: Those were all singular, familiar forms. You, you, yours: that was for formal address or for the plural. We see the same in German, though it also has an informal plural for "you," separate from "du," etc.
Over the years, the familiar use of thee and thou has died out, and is preserved only in church use and the occasional Quakerism (who, being social levellers, addressed everyone in the second person singular/familiar).
Did Middle Icelandic (or whatever it was in the 10th Century) have a similar distinction? If so, I'd hazard that your MC wouldn't feel that cozy with Thor and would address him only in great awe and trepidation, using the formal pronouns. That said, given the reversal English has undergone, maybe using "thou" and "thee" would be best. Otherwise, you'd have to show her using those forms in her everyday life, with all the proper conjugations of the verbs, and saving "you," etc., for the gods and for people owed particular respect and awe.
And it drives me crazy when people don't get the related verbs right.
Over the years, the familiar use of thee and thou has died out, and is preserved only in church use and the occasional Quakerism (who, being social levellers, addressed everyone in the second person singular/familiar).
Did Middle Icelandic (or whatever it was in the 10th Century) have a similar distinction? If so, I'd hazard that your MC wouldn't feel that cozy with Thor and would address him only in great awe and trepidation, using the formal pronouns. That said, given the reversal English has undergone, maybe using "thou" and "thee" would be best. Otherwise, you'd have to show her using those forms in her everyday life, with all the proper conjugations of the verbs, and saving "you," etc., for the gods and for people owed particular respect and awe.
And it drives me crazy when people don't get the related verbs right.
Catrin Lewis
Active Member
My church switched from the old language for the Lord's Prayer at the beginning of the year. And when I say "old language," this congregation was still saying, "Our Father, which art in heaven" and "in earth, as it is in heaven." And now it's not even, "who art in heaven," but just "Our Father in heaven."
I kind of miss the old form, but people are pretty chill and I haven't heard any threaping about the change. What I have noticed is that the pastor leading the prayer will mark a silent beat where the "which art" used to be. That allows folks to catch up.
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This is interesting. I had no idea there were such thing as 'formal' and 'informal' ways of addressing people; I only knew that 'thee' and 'thou' were much, much older (see Shakespeare and earlier). I've associated them with prayer, because I've often seen them used in churches and religious music - sometimes in hymns, but more especially in pieces like Handel's Messiah. (One of the most famous soprano pieces from Messiah is "I know that my redeemer liveth", for instance. And the "Hallelujah" chorus, in part, says "For the Lord God omnipotent reigneth").
Turning to "thee" etc., these words happen frequently throughout the libretto, for instance solo pieces like "Thou shalt break them", "O Thou That Tellest Good Tidings to Zion", "But Thou didst not leave His soul... nor didst Thou suffer thy Holy One to see corruption", and so on.
I'm not an expert on Icelandic, so I have no idea. But I'm writing for English audiences, so I assumed that they would be familiar with (and expect that) a prayer would be worded with "thou"s etc. - for instance:
O Mighty Thor, look down upon thy humble worshipper; regard my distress, for I am beset by enemies! Lend me Thy strength, so that I may face and o'ercome them!
Something along those lines.
Agreed. I've done research on this and paid special attention to it, so I wouldn't make silly mistakes like using "Thou" when I mean "Thy" or "Thine", etc., or saying things like "Thou has/had" (ouch!) instead of "Thou hast/hadst", and so on.
That's very kind of the pastor. I'm sure people appreciate it.
Catrin Lewis
Active Member
I take it your story takes place before the year 1000, when Iceland adopted Christianity as its official religion? Not that they banned people from their old pagan practices, just let them die off naturally. 10th C would still be the 900s, though, wouldn't it?This is interesting. I had no idea there were such thing as 'formal' and 'informal' ways of addressing people; I only knew that 'thee' and 'thou' were much, much older (see Shakespeare and earlier). I've associated them with prayer, because I've often seen them used in churches and religious music - sometimes in hymns, but more especially in pieces like Handel's Messiah. (One of the most famous soprano pieces from Messiah is "I know that my redeemer liveth", for instance. And the "Hallelujah" chorus, in part, says "For the Lord God omnipotent reigneth").
Turning to "thee" etc., these words happen frequently throughout the libretto, for instance solo pieces like "Thou shalt break them", "O Thou That Tellest Good Tidings to Zion", "But Thou didst not leave His soul... nor didst Thou suffer thy Holy One to see corruption", and so on.
I'm not an expert on Icelandic, so I have no idea. But I'm writing for English audiences, so I assumed that they would be familiar with (and expect that) a prayer would be worded with "thou"s etc. - for instance:
O Mighty Thor, look down upon thy humble worshipper; regard my distress, for I am beset by enemies! Lend me Thy strength, so that I may face and o'ercome them!
Something along those lines.
Agreed. I've done research on this and paid special attention to it, so I wouldn't make silly mistakes like using "Thou" when I mean "Thy" or "Thine", etc., or saying things like "Thou has/had" (ouch!) instead of "Thou hast/hadst", and so on.
That's very kind of the pastor. I'm sure people appreciate it.
As for the prayer language you suggest, I don't know, but it creeps me out. It sounds too much like an actual Psalm, totally Judeo-Christian and belonging to that tradition. Maybe relate your heroine's prayers more to what Thor was supposed to be like, as in, "O mighty Thor, hear me! Wield thy great hammer! Smash my enemies before me! I am but a woman, but I would be a warrior for thee! Hear me, and I will offer thee [whatever worthy sacrifice she might think of]!"
Would Norse religion set such a great store on humbly waiting for the gods to act as Christianity waits on Yahweh/Jesus Christ? Sure, it's understood that humanity was/is as nothing compared to the deities, but I've gotten the impression that the Northern gods demanded that their devotees suck it up and be ready to kill or be killed to please them. Softness of any kind was looked down upon, like with the Spartans.
I'm thinking of an actual old Norse legend I heard narrated a few months ago, I can't remember on what platform. It was about a Dark Ages Norwegian king who was known for his bravery, his hardihood, his command of his men, and his strict, abstinent way of life. In the story, he was persuaded to introduce something into his court, something you and I know as a good thing with no moral character, or even (as I would say) as God's good gift to be received with thanksgiving. Let's say it was apples, or honey. He starts allowing honey at his table, even though the priests tell him Odin will be displeased at his enjoying sweet things. And the mere eating of honey causes him and his men to go soft and degenerate, till at last another king, the king of Sweden, maybe, marches in and takes his kingdom over. We're to understand he deserved every bit of his downfall, because he softened up and became unworthy of the gods.
If I can remember where I heard it, I'll let you know. What I'm saying is, that sample prayer you've suggested seems way too Christian. To my gut, anyway.
Yes, it takes place right on the year 1000 -- but a few weeks before the vote is taken to adopt Christianity. (Even after that vote, people are allowed to worship Woden and Thor, Loki and Freyja etc. in their own homes).
Hmm ... that's something I researched in depth. Norse worshippers understood that they'd have to find a solution themselves, not wait passively for a divine miracle.
On the other hand, most Norse rituals had an 'understanding' between worshippers and gods; it was a 'favor for a favor'. (In Latin, it was a "do ut des", i.e. "I give so that you might give" relationship). Worshippers held sacrificial feasts known as blót, offering food, drink, and animal sacrifice to maintain a good relationship with their deities.
Worshippers asked for things like safety in travel, victory in battle, maintaining law and order - and on a more practical level, good harvests, safety during pregnancy, or success when farming, hunting or fishing. (In less specific requests, worshippers also asked for good fortune, good health, wisdom, love, and strength).
That's fair. The above prayer isn't one I used, but just one I came up with on the spur of the moment.
Here's one I used after my would-be heroine is bested in battle; her sword is bent, her shield shattered, and she is nearly killed. After being partially healed, she expresses her desire to go back into battle and avenge herself. Before this, she offers this prayer to Thor:
“Thor, my god, help your servant! You are mighty, and full of vigor.” She clenches her fists and raises her voice. “O Protector, let your spirit infuse your child, that I might again face your enemy!”
How does this sound? Thor is well-known as 'protector of mankind'; in the sagas, he shields ordinary people from chaos, giants, and hostile monsters.
I'm a little hesitant of the word 'servant', but it's one that I've seen many prayers use (ones from both men and women) ... so. *shrug*
Hmm ... the year 1,000 AD is well past the Dark Ages (which is a questionable term, I know), and different areas in Scandinavia worshipped the gods in different ways. Norway is also a much harsher land than, say, Denmark. (The Danes faced much the same pressures, but also political instability; Norway become one country in the 9th century under Harald Fairhair, but Denmark was still politically divided).
Anyway, I chose Iceland because unlike other places where Scandinavians settled or raided, Iceland was isolated, and there was no one to fight or pillage - so it was also more (relatively) peaceful. On the other hand, communities were more isolated from each other. The weather was also severe and unpredictable weather. (It's known, not for nothing, as the Land of Ice and Fire). Many of the first Catholic missionaries thought it was hell.
This gave me another idea: what if, on this isolated island, the mythical creatures from Norse myths came to exist (because people actually believed that they existed)? If, suddenly, creatures like draug, huldra, werewolves etc. were real (though uncommon), how would people react? Many of them were explorers and farmers, not warriors. (Caveat: Only Norse creatures are allowed. Nothing Egyptian or Greek, etc.)
So aside from fighting back, they'd turn to the gods -- and this is where Thor comes in...!
Catrin Lewis
Active Member
I think "servant" would be perfectly good . . . or you could adapt whatever term a warrior or vassal would use to describe himself in relation to his chieftain or liege lord. There's got to be an Icelandic term ripe for translating.Yes, it takes place right on the year 1000 -- but a few weeks before the vote is taken to adopt Christianity. (Even after that vote, people are allowed to worship Woden and Thor, Loki and Freyja etc. in their own homes).
Hmm ... that's something I researched in depth. Norse worshippers understood that they'd have to find a solution themselves, not wait passively for a divine miracle.
On the other hand, most Norse rituals had an 'understanding' between worshippers and gods; it was a 'favor for a favor'. (In Latin, it was a "do ut des", i.e. "I give so that you might give" relationship). Worshippers held sacrificial feasts known as blót, offering food, drink, and animal sacrifice to maintain a good relationship with their deities.
Worshippers asked for things like safety in travel, victory in battle, maintaining law and order - and on a more practical level, good harvests, safety during pregnancy, or success when farming, hunting or fishing. (In less specific requests, worshippers also asked for good fortune, good health, wisdom, love, and strength).
That's fair. The above prayer isn't one I used, but just one I came up with on the spur of the moment.
Here's one I used after my would-be heroine is bested in battle; her sword is bent, her shield shattered, and she is nearly killed. After being partially healed, she expresses her desire to go back into battle and avenge herself. Before this, she offers this prayer to Thor:
“Thor, my god, help your servant! You are mighty, and full of vigor.” She clenches her fists and raises her voice. “O Protector, let your spirit infuse your child, that I might again face your enemy!”
How does this sound? Thor is well-known as 'protector of mankind'; in the sagas, he shields ordinary people from chaos, giants, and hostile monsters.
I'm a little hesitant of the word 'servant', but it's one that I've seen many prayers use (ones from both men and women) ... so. *shrug*
Hmm ... the year 1,000 AD is well past the Dark Ages (which is a questionable term, I know), and different areas in Scandinavia worshipped the gods in different ways. Norway is also a much harsher land than, say, Denmark. (The Danes faced much the same pressures, but also political instability; Norway become one country in the 9th century under Harald Fairhair, but Denmark was still politically divided).
Anyway, I chose Iceland because unlike other places where Scandinavians settled or raided, Iceland was isolated, and there was no one to fight or pillage - so it was also more (relatively) peaceful. On the other hand, communities were more isolated from each other. The weather was also severe and unpredictable weather. (It's known, not for nothing, as the Land of Ice and Fire). Many of the first Catholic missionaries thought it was hell.
This gave me another idea: what if, on this isolated island, the mythical creatures from Norse myths came to exist (because people actually believed that they existed)? If, suddenly, creatures like draug, huldra, werewolves etc. were real (though uncommon), how would people react? Many of them were explorers and farmers, not warriors. (Caveat: Only Norse creatures are allowed. Nothing Egyptian or Greek, etc.)
Have you come across any evidence of an ordinary Icelander calling himself a child of a god? Again, that strikes me as specifically Christian, but I could be wrong.
It occurs to me, though, that historically, in cultures with a pantheon of gods and goddesses, an individual would devote him or herself to the one they thought could benefit them the most. Like women would petition the goddesses of fertility and the home, and honor the rest of the deities in spirit only, with a random pinch of incense as they passed by a shrine and by turning out for the yearly festival. This reverent disregard extended to the highest gods, who were considered to be too high and distant to care about mortals and their affairs. How your young protagonist comes to attach herself to Thor instead of, say, Freya, would be an interesting and significant part of your story.
Hmm ... no, actually. (I guess that comes from reading too many Judeo-Christian libretti of sacred music). I'll change that.
It also struck me that the prayer above seems a bit too 'pleading'. Could a prayer be more forceful? For instance:
"Great Thor, twice have I come before you, to no avail. Now I am faced with a huldra, one far stronger than I! Though my shield is shattered, my blade bent, and my body aching, I will face it -- for my spirit is strong, and my courage not lacking!
Yet I do not have the strength to take on such a foe. Grant me that strength, O Thor, for I offer you this libation and burned offering!" (It's a dish of boiled pork, carrots, and ale - perfect for medieval Iceland. Mead features a lot more in the sagas, but honey was hard to come by in Iceland).
How does that sound?
I've looked into this. My young protagonist is the daughter of Leif Eriksson and the granddaughter of Erik the Red, so with a lineage like that, she's heard lots of stories about heroes and wild adventure.
She sees her dad and brothers go off to be Vikings, and she thinks: why not me? So she dedicates herself to Thor.Her mother and father indulge her and allow her to train with a sword. (It wasn't common, but some Icelandic women are well-known for their skill with weapons, like Freydís Eiríksdóttir and Broka-Auður). All the same, they want her to marry well and be a good housewife; but she is repulsed by the idea. "Marry Bjornr, mother? But he only bathes once a fortnight, and as for his breath -- well!" Etc. They have a bit of a row about it.
But the village comes under siege, and her brother is kidnapped. But she fights well, so she thinks of herself as a great warrior and leader of men (hooray). But there's work to do: find little brother and bring him home safe. Off she goes off into the wilds ... but imagining yourself as a leader and being one are different things. Eventually, through trial and error, she learns how to be a good leader and inspire others.
What do you think?
Catrin Lewis
Active Member
Yes, there you go. Yes, that is a lineage, and a nice, strong "Look at me!" Nordic pagan prayer.Hmm ... no, actually. (I guess that comes from reading too many Judeo-Christian libretti of sacred music). I'll change that.
It also struck me that the prayer above seems a bit too 'pleading'. Could a prayer be more forceful? For instance:
"Great Thor, twice have I come before you, to no avail. Now I am faced with a huldra, one far stronger than I! Though my shield is shattered, my blade bent, and my body aching, I will face it -- for my spirit is strong, and my courage not lacking!
Yet I do not have the strength to take on such a foe. Grant me that strength, O Thor, for I offer you this libation and burned offering!" (It's a dish of boiled pork, carrots, and ale - perfect for medieval Iceland. Mead features a lot more in the sagas, but honey was hard to come by in Iceland).
How does that sound?
I've looked into this. My young protagonist is the daughter of Leif Eriksson and the granddaughter of Erik the Red, so with a lineage like that, she's heard lots of stories about heroes and wild adventure.
Her mother and father indulge her and allow her to train with a sword. (It wasn't common, but some Icelandic women are well-known for their skill with weapons, like Freydís Eiríksdóttir and Broka-Auður). All the same, they want her to marry well and be a good housewife; but she is repulsed by the idea. "Marry Bjornr, mother? But he only bathes once a fortnight, and as for his breath -- well!" Etc. They have a bit of a row about it.
But the village comes under siege, and her brother is kidnapped. But she fights well, so she thinks of herself as a great warrior and leader of men (hooray). But there's work to do: find little brother and bring him home safe. Off she goes off into the wilds ... but imagining yourself as a leader and being one are different things. Eventually, through trial and error, she learns how to be a good leader and inspire others.
What do you think?
All through this, I've been thinking how the pagans made fun of the Christian missionaries, who wouldn't man up and fight and who proclaimed a God who got Himself killed. (Little did they know . . . )
And for your purposes, it's good to keep your heroine upholding those values of personal strength, even if at first she's not as strong as she thinks she is.
Thanks! I wrote out a character sketch for her (and also for the other major characters), as well as a scene summary and timeline, before I started writing. So I can always refer back to that, if I need to.
Wait a minute: did they?
Whoops. My novel doesn't feature missionaries (at least not directly), so I didn't research that part. It's good to know. I know that the Norse continued to wear Mjölnir pendants for a long time, but not every Norse person mocked or belittled missionaries.I'm not saying that it didn't happen (it definitely did), but in my understanding, it was usually indifference to the new religion, syncretism (mixing faiths), and eventually, political conversion to facilitate better trading relations. Is that right?
