It Began in a Tavern (OOC Thread) (Part 2)

This tends to suggest the sun should be "out" for not more than a few days.
Definately, though we should make it weeks for convenience. It's hard to wrap up everything in the span of a few in-universe days. It's creative writing so we can be creative about it.

We need to get them all together in one spot?
That will most certainly happen. But while Sophia is away basically turning into a different person, what are Katara and the others up to? That's basically what I am asking.

It may be time to introduce the character "the Architect" into the story.
Probably. We first have to decide who that is precisely, or maybe even what.

Should Melina's rage be diffused? Is there any redemption for her? Or will she just be destroyed?
It depends on the message we want to communicate. Should someone like her have any hope of redemption? If yes, how? and what is the path? If no, do we just kill her?

I am wondering if the Architect can appear alongside the ghosts of the monks in the ruined abbey
I don't see why not. Again, it depends on what we want this character to be. The plain and simple answer... the God who created the world. Or... we can go with something more creative than that.

I'm not sure if they have the time for this?
Up to you. Really, I was just throwing an idea here.

I am also wondering how we can get the people at the ruined abbey together with Katara and Ravenna
If memory serves, Arthur, Barnabas, Hemios, Dusca, Gamma and Araspeth are there. We can easily bring Katara and Ravenna at the ruins. One of the ghosts could guide them there. They have horses (Pippin and Nova) so it should be easy for them to travel there.
 
Um... in my opinion. No one. At least not the queen or the architect. I said the Trio should take the throne after the other two are dead.
I can't imagine Sophia ruling over anyone, and neither can Katara I don't think. A throne doesn't even need to exist after the conclusion. We can just bring good old democracy into the story, for example. Democracy isn't perfect but I think it would work much better than the current dictatorship.
 
This discussion is making me realize that there is, well, much to discuss!

Again, we are not aiming to come up with the whole story here—just some key information. It'd be pretty boring to figure everything out now and just write to a script. Part of the fun here is us surprising each other. Actually, it's most of the fun, so we shouldn't spoil too much. Me revealing Melina's motivations is already a big spoiler.

We knew what was supposed to happen in Cliffcross and we wrote with that aim. We kept focused and wrote to that, which really helped us going off track or anything like that. My main goal with this discussion is to achieve a similar goal post. What happens next? And why?
 
We first have to decide who that is precisely, or maybe even what.

Just throwing this out there-

How about if we look at a cross between Indigenous religion and pantheist philosophy? The idea that spirits inhabit all things, and that "God" is very existence itself. What can we borrow from these ideas?

Indigenous -

Great Spirit and Worldviews​

Many Indigenous peoples subscribe to the idea of a Creator, Great Spirit or Great Mystery — a power or being that has created the world and everything in it. These beings are often described as good or well-intentioned, though dangerous if treated carelessly or with disrespect.

Great spiritual power is also found in the spirits of all living things, natural phenomena and ritually significant places. In general, supernatural mystery or power is called Orenda by the Haudenosaunee, Wakan by the Dakota and Manitou by the Algonquian peoples. This power is a property of the spirits, but also belongs to transformers, tricksters, culture heroes, or other spirit figures, as well as shamans, prophets and ceremonial performers. Ritual objects such as the calumet, rattles, drums, masks, medicine wheels, medicine bundles and ritual sanctuaries are filled with spiritual power.

Various Indigenous oral histories tell of contacts made between humans and the world beyond. Ceremonially, columns of smoke, central house posts or the central pole of the Sun Dance lodge represent such connections. Many nations tell of a primeval sea or great flood. Northwest Coast peoples, such as the Kwakwaka’wakw, divide the year into two major seasons: the summer time and the winter time, in which most religious ceremonies take place. Historically agricultural societies such as the Haudenosaunee have ceremonial calendars organized around the harvest times of various food plants, with a life-renewal ceremony usually held in midwinter.

A key concept among many societies is the notion of guardians. Among the Abenaki, for instance, Bear is considered one of six directional guardians (west), representing courage, physical strength and bravery. Among the Inuit, the sea goddess Sedna is the guardian of sea mammals and controls when stocks are available to be hunted. Shamans may visit Sedna and coax her into releasing the animals by righting previous wrongs or presenting offerings.


The basic principles (of pantheism)​

Our beliefs and values are summarized in our Principles of Scientific Pantheism. The statement was drawn up by fallible humans. It is not required dogma – it is simply a notice on our door, to show what we are about so people can decide if it suits them or if they want to learn more. These are the key elements:

  • Reverence, awe, wonder and a feeling of belonging to Nature and the wider Universe.
  • Celebration of our lives in our bodies on this beautiful earth as a joy and a privilege.
  • Respect and active care for the rights of all humans and other living beings.
  • Promotion of non-discrimination, religious tolerance, freedom of and from religion and complete separation of state and religion.
  • Realism – belief in a real external world that exists independent of human consciousness.
  • Strong naturalism – without belief in supernatural realms, afterlives, beings or forces.
  • Respect for reason, evidence and the scientific method as our best ways of understanding nature and the Cosmos.
 
What can we borrow from these ideas?
Looking at both, they seem to largely contrast each other. One is religious belief, and the other is largely science (but with a tolerance for religion). I think it might be hard to combine them.

I like these principles:
  • Celebration of our lives in our bodies on this beautiful earth as a joy and a privilege.
  • Respect and active care for the rights of all humans and other living beings.
  • Promotion of non-discrimination, religious tolerance, freedom of and from religion and complete separation of state and religion.

It's what we are going for, isn't it? We want to alter the world into a more accepting one. But strong naturalism basically contradicts everything we have so far since supernatural spirits do exist, so we evidently can't go borrow that unless we frame it in a different way.

The idea that spirits inhabit all things, and that "God" is very existence itself. What can we borrow from these ideas?
This gives me an idea.

Let's suppose the following: This supposed architect doesn't exist and is a mere illusion; a sham. Melina has harboured deep rage to seek him but ultimately finds exactly what you say here: That the architect is existence itself, that everything contributed to what is now, and that therefore, everyone is part of the universe—the architect of everything. Meaning that, although she has been chasing to punish a greater existence, she was partially responsible for everything in the end. She chose violence and the seeking of a force that never existed when the answer was right within her all along: She is part of the wider universe, and she should have pursued to fix the power imbalance.

The message being: It's easy to believe in a higher existence and think that an answer lies there. It's hard to actually take matters into your own hands and try to make change with what you have. I think it applies to reality pretty well. If God really doesn't exist (which most would agree there is a pretty reasonable chance), then the same basically applies: We came to be through natural architecture. One thing happened, then the other, and we came to exist. Now we all have a say in what happens next in the world, even if it's just a tiny bit.

The gear Melina found is simply a world-altering object that is too dangerous. It gives one too much power and the balance breaks because the rest of existence can no longer contribute. Power limits naturally balance who (and in what way) an individual influences the world to change its architecture. The ancients did the right thing and hid it for this reason, but the power hungry Melina foolishly sought it for herself and brought back only destruction.

It is an answer that is interestingly close to the real world, and it does leave room that maybe there is a higher existence to satisfy this principle: Realism – belief in a real external world that exists independent of human consciousness.

I do like the message honestly because it's true. It's pretty clear that no higher existence (even if it exists) is here to rescue us as we are now. The world sucks and it's up to us to make it better and more comfortable for everyone. If we do nothing, nothing will happen.

It's a concept that largely comes from my religious parents. I've witnessed them choosing to do nothing my whole life and to instead pray to a higher God to fix everything for them. And spoiler alert, the being they prayed so much to didn't do very much.

We can go with this route, or we can actually really do go with the concept of a higher existence that governs all—the architect. I kind of like the above route but I would also like to toy with the idea of a higher God.
 
Melina has harboured deep rage to seek him but ultimately finds exactly what you say here: That the architect is existence itself, that everything contributed to what is now, and that therefore, everyone is part of the universe—the architect of everything. Meaning that, although she has been chasing to punish a greater existence, she was partially responsible for everything in the end. She chose violence and the seeking of a force that never existed when the answer was right within her all along: She is part of the wider universe, and she should have pursued to fix the power imbalance.

I love this!!!!

It's easy to believe in a higher existence and think that an answer lies there. It's hard to actually take matters into your own hands and try to make change with what you have. I think it applies to reality pretty well. If God really doesn't exist (which most would agree there is a pretty reasonable chance), then the same basically applies: We came to be through natural architecture. One thing happened, then the other, and we came to exist. Now we all have a say in what happens next in the world, even if it's just a tiny bit.

Love it!!!

I really like putting the accountability on each character and the decisions they make.

The gear Melina found is simply a world-altering object that is too dangerous. It gives one too much power and the balance breaks because the rest of existence can no longer contribute. Power limits naturally balance who (and in what way) an individual influences the world to change its architecture. The ancients did the right thing and hid it for this reason, but the power hungry Melina foolishly sought it for herself and brought back only destruction.

the gear gets its power from its handlers, not the other way around
 
Should we go for it, then? I think it's an interesting irony. Melina's rage boils for the architect. She wants to kill him. Oblitrate him... only to discover that she is the architect. Because she is existence. And that she therefore has herself to blame, especially for all the destruction.

So, here is the basic plan I propose.
  • At some point, Olive is revived. I have great plans for this and it should happen in this post.
  • While Olive recovers, Melina collects the rest of the fragments
  • Olive eventually recovers with a newfound power and rises back to her feet as a different person, ready to face Melina
  • When Olive is ready, she meets back up with Katara and Ravenna (and however else is with them)
  • Eventually, the final battle happens and Olive faces Melina, who has obtained the power of the gear
  • They discover the truth behind the architect and the scriptures (I think we should make up something good about them too)
  • Denouncement ensues
This is very basic, and obviously, lots of stuff happens in between. We should simply find out what through discovery writing like we've been doing all this time. It's tons of fun!

Katara and Ravenna should play an important role as well. It was also suggested that Pria will do something big in the last post, so @IgnitedxSoul can surprise me too. I think it might have been a bit of a mistake to ask what that is now because you may not know, so I will leave you to discover it and surprise me! But one thing we have established is that they will play a big role when everything goes back to normal to help reshape society. A poet, lab rat and mage should have a say to make everything balanced.

If everyone is happy with that, we should go for it. But also remember that we don't have to stick to it religiously. If we discover more interesting twists along the way, we can always go off-plan or adjust it. The whole point is to have a solid idea that we all agree with.
 
Looking at both, they seem to largely contrast each other. One is religious belief, and the other is largely science (but with a tolerance for religion). I think it might be hard to combine them.
These are decent ideas, however, I never thought this world was set up for a pantheism/North American ideas. I always saw this world as a western fantasy world, more or less. So I figured their religious ideas were more based in Christianity or Ancient Roman/Greek Mythology.
It's what we are going for, isn't it? We want to alter the world into a more accepting one. But strong naturalism basically contradicts everything we have so far since supernatural spirits do exist, so we evidently can't go borrow that unless we frame it in a different way.
I think with the spirits, it's easier to go with a more Greek/Roman idea. Because we also haven't set this up for saints or archangels.
This supposed architect doesn't exist and is a mere illusion; a sham.
Interesting. But then, why does the world or prophesy even exist? Or more, how do these things exist? We could argue that 'science' is the cause, i.e. The Big Bang, etc. Which would make sense. I would be happier with that idea. Maybe the architect IS the Big Bang and people made it into a godly figure?
The message being: It's easy to believe in a higher existence and think that an answer lies there. It's hard to actually take matters into your own hands and try to make change with what you have.
I get that, but I think the message I find or at least would say for the RP would be: All humans should be treated equally and it's possible to change society to reflect that.


As for Ravenna, if everyone is sticking together, I would say she would do her best to take care of Olive. Because she knows what its like to be alone and unwell.
 
I always saw this world as a western fantasy world, more or less. So I figured their religious ideas were more based in Christianity or Ancient Roman/Greek Mythology.
Same here. But I like it when a story carries a realistic message, so when Louanne suggested the idea, I jumped to make the most of it and it seems that everyone agrees, so we'll go for that. Abrupt changes like this are to be expected since this is a discovery written story. I have a feeling that all the writers here are discovery writers.

I think with the spirits, it's easier to go with a more Greek/Roman idea. Because we also haven't set this up for saints or archangels.
The spirits are just natural forces. Yuuna is light, Kurai is darkness, Kori is winter. As to their deeper meaning and origins of existence, I am not quite sure. I think I would leave that to be a mystery. Leaving some of the concepts up for interpretation is a nice strategy to create wonder.

Interesting. But then, why does the world or prophesy even exist? Or more, how do these things exist? We could argue that 'science' is the cause, i.e. The Big Bang, etc. Which would make sense. I would be happier with that idea. Maybe the architect IS the Big Bang and people made it into a godly figure?
Someone wrote them in the past. There have been various scriptures mentioned (Book of Embers, Scroll of Kurai, Scroll of Yuuna and some others). It's pretty obvious who wrote the two mentioned scrolls, and I always imagined them to be: Kurai wrote the scroll to say: Screw all of you, this is what will happen, and you have no choice! More importantly, he wrote it specifically so he could stir ideas into Melina's head. It's a manipulation tactic. He knew she'd want power, so she coined some warrior who'd "unfold lands and oceans" because she'd love it, and stick to it when she finds out that she was meant to be that warrior—because that's what Kurai intended.

The problem is as you say: that some of the spirits have been talking about the architect as a real, existing entity up until this point, so we can't just u-turn. The only solution is to make it so the spirits themselves believe in the architect. The real question, then, is: How did that delusion come to be?

I'd rather not do any extensive planning around this bit. Let's just keep the fact in mind: The spirits also believe in the non-existant architect, and come up with a good answer as we keep discovering the rest of the story.

Most importantly, we should treat the scriptures as reasonable predictions founded in reality. Yuuna wrote hers to oppose Kurai's, but hers didn't come to pass, so the next part of the story is all about overcoming that!

This also shows us that not all scriptures need to be necessarily true. I mean, not all of Yuuna's word came to pass. And even when that changes by the end, then Kurai's word are voided by consequence.

I get that, but I think the message I find or at least would say for the RP would be: All humans should be treated equally and it's possible to change society to reflect that.
Yes, exactly! The super basic version of the message is: Don't just sit there and hope the divine will rescue you, make action and change with your own two hands. And since this story is all about social inequality, it also says that humanity is responsible for fixing its own problems. No divine is there to rescue them. Not even the spirits. Making the society more equal is up to them, and the three predicted girls are there to reform the world afterwards. There is balance in that... a lot more than a single royal reforming everything!

That's essentially what the Scroll of Yuuna predicts. She perceived society to be imbalanced and broken (because it is) so she intended for three members (each belonging to one of the major social classes) to step in and bring balance.

Ravenna belongs to the lab rat class. Lab rats probably didn't exist back in Myrto's time, but slavery very much did. You take a poet, strip their freedom, and do with them as you please. Lab rats are just modern (from the story's relative time) slaves.

It's also notable how the three chosen are actually members of all classes we have so far. Sophia is a mage, but also a royal. Katara is a poet, but also a scientist. Ravenna is a lab rat, but also a poet. The poet bit is kind of redundant but it's no problem because there is more diversity.

Sophia especially has plenty of negative experiences with the royals. Her circumstances were such that she couldn't benefit from being a royal, but still had insider perspective and first hand experience on what happens to those whom royals perceive as weak.

Our trio is quite balanced! And it's really funny because we never actually planned this. It just sort of happened and it makes a lot of sense. There were threads in the forum about how characters tend to write themselves. Well, it's true!

As for Ravenna, if everyone is sticking together, I would say she would do her best to take care of Olive. Because she knows what its like to be alone and unwell.
That could be a possibility. She going to be pretty ill herself quite soon (no spoilers!) so that might make sense. I'll see about it though and talk to you in PMs about it. Since you can't write, let's come up with a plan for Ravenna privately (so you don't spoil the others). I really do think that the surprises are a big part of the fun.
 
I have a feeling that all the writers here are discovery writers.
Yep! I am very much a discovery writer. However, I am learning that I need to organize my discovery pieces into a logical order. Haha.
The spirits are just natural forces. Yuuna is light, Kurai is darkness, Kori is winter. As to their deeper meaning and origins of existence, I am not quite sure. I think I would leave that to be a mystery. Leaving some of the concepts up for interpretation is a nice strategy to create wonder.
That's fair. And hey, is the a Summer? If there is a winter? I understand leaving things to interpretations, although it's not my personal style. A little mystery is fun.
The problem is as you say: that some of the spirits have been talking about the architect as a real, existing entity up until this point, so we can't just u-turn. The only solution is to make it so the spirits themselves believe in the architect. The real question, then, is: How did that delusion come to be?
Um, what if the Spirits are not sure how they exist or why. So, they came up with the idea of the architect, because like humans, they cannot fathom the idea that they merely are. Because they are so powerful, someone must have created them? Or maybe it was an falsehood created by one of them to keep the others in line. Because if there is something more powerful than them, then the spirits cannot 'do whatever they want'.
And since this story is all about social inequality, it also says that humanity is responsible for fixing its own problems.
Ah, yes. I like this. :)
Ravenna belongs to the lab rat class. Lab rats probably didn't exist back in Myrto's time, but slavery very much did. You take a poet, strip their freedom, and do with them as you please. Lab rats are just modern (from the story's relative time) slaves.
Bingo. You got it. I also think like slaves in this world time line, lab rats are used to further economic and technological knowledge and wealth in this society. Like how in our world, in the US, slaves created economic prosperity for the southern states. (Which was bad. Because slaves weren't paid or treated well, but the work they were forced to do created economic gain. Just like people forced to work in factories where they are paid $1 a day to make iphones or whatever. Bad for humans, good for the government, etc.)
Our trio is quite balanced! And it's really funny because we never actually planned this. It just sort of happened and it makes a lot of sense. There were threads in the forum about how characters tend to write themselves. Well, it's true!
I agree. It is funny. But that's how discovery writing works.
She going to be pretty ill herself quite soon (no spoilers!) so that might make sense. I'll see about it though and talk to you in PMs about it. Since you can't write, let's come up with a plan for Ravenna privately (so you don't spoil the others). I really do think that the surprises are a big part of the fun.
Yes, please message me! I would love to help you with this. I CAN write, but it may be slower. If everyone here is okay with me taking extra time, I would join back in.
Also, I will say: I am being quite verbose. It's because I am in the spectrum (pretty common characteristic). I really hope it doesn't bother anyone :)
No worries. I am not on the spectrum and I can write a whole bunch about something. It does not bother me. I prefer long detailed posts to short ones.

Also! I want to thank you, too. You care so much about this story and I am so happy you and everyone are putting so much love and care into the idea.
 
That's fair. And hey, is the a Summer? If there is a winter? I understand leaving things to interpretations, although it's not my personal style. A little mystery is fun.
The Alphabet Society is affiliated with the seasonal spirits, so yes! Beta has the summer spirit. I associated summer with fire, so he is a fire mage.

Gamma has the autumn spirit, so she is associated with air. Why? I dunno... Greek autumns are pretty windy. Maybe because of the temperature differences.

Or maybe it was an falsehood created by one of them to keep the others in line.
I think that is a very good explanation, and Kurai sounds like he'd be the one to do something as stupid as this. I'm not going to answer this now though. I'll just let one of us potentially discover it in writing. I don't really want these threads to answer the whole story. Again, it's so much more fun for everyone to answer details in-story.

Yes, please message me! I would love to help you with this. I CAN write, but it may be slower. If everyone here is okay with me taking extra time, I would join back in.
I'll PM you shortly so we can arrange something.
 
Gamma has the autumn spirit, so she is associated with air. Why? I dunno... Greek autumns are pretty windy. Maybe because of the temperature differences.
Also, wind, leaves falling. It works. :)
I think that is a very good explanation, and Kurai sounds like he'd be the one to do something as stupid as this. I'm not going to answer this now though. I'll just let one of us potentially discover it in writing. I don't really want these threads to answer the whole story. Again, it's so much more fun for everyone to answer details in-story.
Thank you. I am glad it sounds like Kurai. I totally understand. I know that if I outline something completely, I feel like I have written it and the story is 'finished'. Which makes it not interesting anymore to my discovery brain.
 
Okay, new post made. I wrote half of this at the airport! I've never written on the go like this but it was pretty fun.

I had tons of fun writing all kinds of perspectives. I really loved writing this post. The first few scenes were greatly inspired by @IgnitedxSoul's own post because I really loved it.

I left a lot of loose ends that can be continued if desired. Pick whatever interests you and go from there!

The last scene is probably the most shocking if you didn't pick up all the hints I've been throwing. It might not make a whole lot of sense right now, but it will in the future. Trust in me!

I wrote a lot of characters this time around as a result of all this. Please let me know if I got something wrong and I'll gladly correct it.

Oh, also, I'm currently experimenting with my writing style a lot, so this post will probably read a bit weird in places.
 
Very fun post! Lots of unique interesting moments, the world all responding to this incident in unique ways!

The development at Cliffcross was very unexpected, I'm looking forward to seeing what Louanne does with this!
 
Oh, also, some new lore got introduced in the last post. They should probably be added to the Encyclopedia.

The Encyclopedia is actually pretty outdated. I can work on fully updating it but does anyone here actually use the info threads? The point of them is to be useful, so if they are not, not much point in me updating them.

I'd be happy to do it either way. Just let me know!
 
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