The Philosophy Thread

[JLT]

Lake Onondaga, near Syracuse, New York, went though the same ordeal that Lake Erie did, being a dumping ground for various factories. My dad used to sail his canoe there back in the 1930s, but it became too toxic for any contact with the water. I hear that it's recovered to the point where fishing is allowed again, but I don't know if it's safe for swimming now. The Onondaga Nation has been battling the state for years for jurisdiction of the lake, which the Haudenosaunee nations have always considered sacred.

 

[Louanne Learning]

The Onondaga Nation has been battling the state for years for jurisdiction of the lake, which the Haudenosaunee nations have always considered sacred.

Yes, I've done a bit of reading on it, and Indigenous peoples definitely look upon nature as sacred. All things contain spirits, and humans are just one element in a vast, interconnected existence. We're in nature, not above it.

Indigenous peoples have very different philosophies at heart than does the western European tradition. Chief amoung the differences is the European philosophy centering on "accumulation" while the Indigenous philosophy centers on "only what I need right now." You can see how these differing philosophies led to different views on how nature should be used (and abused).

A fascinating book I read is HISTORY, MANNERS, AND CUSTOMS OF THE INDIAN NATIONS WHO ONCE INHABITED PENNSYLVANIA AND THE NEIGHBOURING STATES - published in 1819 - it was written by the Rev. John Heckewelder - who spent many years living amoung he Indigenous people.

In the book, he recounts an anecdote that calls to mind the Natives' collectivist philosophy:

Some travelling Indians having in the year 1777, put their horses over night to pasture in my little meadow, at Gnadenhütten on the Muskingum, I called on them in the morning to learn why they had done so. I endeavoured to make them sensible of the injury they had done me, especially as I intended to mow the meadow in a day or two. Having finished my complaint, one of them replied: “My friend, it seems you lay claim to the grass my horses have eaten, because you had enclosed it with a fence: now tell me, who caused the grass to grow? Can you make the grass grow? I think not, and no body can except the great Mannitto. He it is who causes it to grow both for my horses and for yours! See, friend! the grass which grows out of the earth is common to all; the game in the woods is common to all. Say, did you never eat venison and bear’s meat?—‘Yes, very often.’—Well, and did you ever hear me or any other Indian complain about that? No; then be not disturbed at my horses having eaten only once, of what you call your grass, though the grass my horses did eat, in like manner as the meat you did eat, was given to the Indians by the Great Spirit. Besides, if you will but consider, you will find that my horses did not eat all your grass. For friendship’s sake, however, I shall never put my horses in your meadow again.”

 

[Louanne Learning]

I wasn't sure where to put this, but decided on the Philosophy thread, to see if we can make any sense out of this.

You may have seen the footage that is going viral online. A massive brawl on ice between two under-8 mixed hockey teams.

See the goalie come in and throw herself on the pile - that's right, the goalie is a girl.

Does this brawl say anything significant about the state of - anything?

 

[Homer Potvin]

I wasn't sure were to put this, but decided on the Philosophy thread, to see if we can make any sense out of this.

You may have seen the footage that is going viral online. A massive brawl on ice between two under-8 mixed hockey teams.

See the goalie come in and throw herself on the pile - that's right, the goalie is a girl.

Does this brawl say anything significant about the state of - anything?

Haha. One of the kids in blue nailed two of his own teammates.

 

[Louanne Learning]

Haha. One of the kids in blue nailed two of his own teammates.

I really thought I had seen a lot, but this one took my by surprise.

Where were the coaches? Where were the officials?

 

[Rigor Mortis]

Does this brawl say anything significant about the state of - anything?

I have very limited exposure to ice hockey, but isn't that just the game, brawls interrupted by the coaches' insistence on keeping score?

 

[Louanne Learning]

but isn't that just the game,

Not with 8 year olds. From what I understand, when the kids in my family played hockey, no fights were ever allowed.

 

[Rigor Mortis]

Not with 8 year olds. From what I understand, when the kids in my family played hockey, no fights were ever allowed.

Yeah, I'm partly having a poke at ice hockey. But only partly. I understand that the fights are a major part of the game. They could be eradicated, stiff penalties and bans for that kind of behaviour but the paying public and the athletes don't want it cut out of the game because, in important respects, it is the game. Put ice hockey into the search bar on Youtube and I expect there will be a plethora of best fights, insane hits, brutal brutishness. It's certainly there when I search rugby.

Kids mimic adults, especially ones they look up to, and with the internet can search and adore all those fisticuffs that your siblings didn't see unless they went to a game. Over and over again.

8-year-olds is a bit shocking, though.

I recall hearing parents shout "give him timber" from the hurling sidelines when my son was very young and I really didn't want to see anyone giving him timber. The culture for that kind of attitude is the responsibility of the parents and the coaches, extending to the governing bodies who can do something about it. Unless they think it's part of the game.

I was going to post D'unbelievables doing the hurling coach but it might not translate. It's funny because it's not a massive exaggeration. Oh, to hell with it, here it is.

 

[GrahamLewis]

I'm reminded of an old joke -- "I went to see the fight, and a hockey game broke out."