The Science Thread

[Selluwud]

Astronomers watch 1st black hole ever imaged launch a 3,000‑light‑year‑long cosmic jet from its glowing 'shadow'​

Fascinating article about black hole imagery.

Astronomers watch 1st black hole ever imaged launch a 3,000‑light‑year‑long cosmic jet from its glowing 'shadow'

"It is amazing to see that we are gradually moving towards combining these breakthrough observations across multiple frequencies and completing the picture of the jet launching region."

www.space.com

 

[Louanne Learning]

Sometimes I think we humans vastly underestimate the intelligence of other species.

Is this an example of intelligence in spiders?

A spiderweb structure that presents the illusion of an intimidating bigger spider.

These spiders weave themselves giant doppelgängers to scare away predators​

Spiders scare off predators by seemingly supersizing themselves

A newfound defensive tactic takes advantage of this idea: researchers documented spiders building giant spiderlike silhouettes on their webs to ward off predators.

These decoys are an example of “web decorations” that some spiders are known to produce, often to prevent getting eaten, avoid bird strikes or attract prey. Such ornaments come in many shapes and sizes, but this is the first time scientists have documented spider-shaped decor.

The spider doppelgängers are made of prey carcasses, plant debris, and other organic materials. They have a central structure from which “legs” branch out.

 

[Naomasa298]

Sounds like simple learned behaviour to me, just like the bowing deer of Nara park, not "intelligence".

 

[Louanne Learning]

learned behaviour

is not the ability to learn a sign of intelligence?

 

[DLC]

Hardwired is the word you want. Learned is an ape showing another ape how to crack a nut with a rock.

 

[Louanne Learning]

Hardwired is the word you want

How does it get hardwired?

 

[DLC]

Big word starting with E

 

[Naomasa298]

is not the ability to learn a sign of intelligence?

No. It's just survival instinct. It doesn't take intelligence to do that if you know it gets you more food, or stops you being eaten. Pavlov's dog is an example of something very similar - behaviour = reward. Pretty much all species seem to have that instinct built in. At least, I don't know any that don't.

 

[Louanne Learning]

Big word starting with E

Evolution? What can't we put down to that?

 

[DLC]

not a lot, sad!

 

[Rigor Mortis]

It's just survival instinct.

Just?

Survival instinct is pretty fucking awesome.

 

[Louanne Learning]

It's just survival instinct.

What can't we put down to that?

Pavlov's dog is an example of something very similar

When Pavlov heard a bell, did he think about feeding the dog?

behaviour = reward. Pretty much all species seem to have that instinct built in.

Interesting observation. I do wonder how much of our behavior is based on getting reward/avoiding harm

 

[Naomasa298]

Just?

Survival instinct is pretty fucking awesome.

"Just" because it's pretty foundational. Without it, life wouldn't be here, meaning every species must have it.

 

[Naomasa298]

What can't we put down to that?

A lot of things. Why do we cook? Why do we write? Why do we play sports?

When Pavlov heard a bell, did he think about feeding the dog?

I don't see why that's relevant. Pavlov wasn't the one being trained.

Interesting observation. I do wonder how much of our behavior is based on getting reward/avoiding harm

I imagine quite a lot. It's why we learned very quickly that lightbulbs were hot. Some behavioural therapy is based on reinforcing reward signals. It's why the deer in Nara Park bow - because they know it increases the likelihood of them getting fed. It's also why we smack (or smacked) children, to reinforce the connection between unwanted behaviour and pain.

 

[Louanne Learning]

Why do we cook?

Well, I guess to eat, but I really believe that cooking is also a creative endeavor. I know I have stared at something good that I have made and felt a deep sense of accomplishment. If we trace behavior back to its most foundational, original fount, it can be connected to getting through our days, and yes this involves survival.

Why do we write?

Because we are thinking, feeling creatures who need to express themselves. All traced back to our need to fit into the group. We are a social species. Also, we are very curious. So, now, I wonder about our evolution that resulted in us asking the question, "Why?" Fucking amazing.

Why do we play sports?

because exercise is good for you. And we are impelled by competition.

Pavlov wasn't the one being trained.

You don't think we are being trained? Interesting.

 

[Naomasa298]

Well, I guess to eat, but I really believe that cooking is also a creative endeavor. I know I have stared at something good that I have made and felt a deep sense of accomplishment.

And my point is that cooking itself, at least, beyond reducing the risk of bacteria infection, isn't attributable to survival instinct. It's one example of behaviour that isn't. You asked what wasn't down to survival instinct, so this is one example.

You don't think we are being trained? Interesting.

Not in that example, no. We, like any other animal, are being trained all the time. I gave you examples, in that post.

How Pavlov was being trained? By what agency?

 

[Louanne Learning]

By what agency?

Consider how the brain works. It's info in > analysis > response.

Not an agency, but the environment, that trains us

 

[Naomasa298]

Consider how the brain works. It's info in > analysis > response.

And you contend that he was being "trained" to feed a dog? That's stretching of semantics, at best.

There was no environmental factor that was reinforcing him to feed the dog. Nothing he was doing was compelling him to. He is unlikely to have felt compelled to feed a dog whenever he heard the stimulus. In fact, part of his experiment showed that the dogs would start salivating even when the metronome (not a bell) was sounded even when the dog wasn't being fed. The dog was reacting involuntarily to a trained stimulus.

Training reinforces reaction to a learned stimulus. At no point was Pavlov himself reacting to a conditioned stimulus.

 

[Louanne Learning]

I have a different understanding of humanity than you do

 

[Naomasa298]

I haven't mentioned "humanity" at all. I'm talking about concepts applicable to all species.